D&D 5E Why the disparity in hit dice between classes? between classes vs. creatures?

[DND_Reborn]

This is just to be a discussion about hit dice (and the hit points gained from them). I'll start by stating a few premises about hit points (and thus hit dice) as I see it. Of course many of you might not agree with some or all of these premises, but for the sake of discussion I would appreciate it if you respond in agreement with them and thanks.

1. Hit points are abstract. While a part of them represents "meat" or "body", the ability to withstand physical damage, the bulk of hit points represent skill in avoiding damage, reflexes, divine favor, luck, etc. Spending hit points when you take damage from a successful attack or failed save, is primarily these abstract factors being used. The metaphysical energy for your ability to avoid serious injury, etc. is expended. Damage which would kill a less-skilled creature is instead avoided entirely or reduced greatly.

2. Hit points do not differentiate between types of damage. Damage from a sword is the same as damage from a failed save versus radiant, from a fall, etc.

3. Creatures hit dice type is determined by size. Arguably this is because larger creatures have more "meat" or "body". I do not think it would be reasonable to argue the greater hit dice type is due to the metaphysical aspects of hit points such as skill, reflexes, luck, etc. because otherwise all creatures of a certain size would have that same benefit or others.

4. Having more hit dice means a creature has greater ability to withstand physical injury, more skill at avoiding or mitigating it, more divine favor, more luck, etc. This is why characters gain hit dice as they gain levels. Experience translates into "more" of the metaphysical aspect of hit points, and perhaps a part of those hit points are also the enhanced ability to withstand physical pain or injury (this would also be partly represented by the Constitution bonus to hit points).

QUESTIONS:

1. Why would a barbarian earn a d12 for hit dice, while a sorcerer gains only a d6? What is the reason why some classes have larger hit die types than others?

2. Medium creatures use a d8. Most PCs are medium in size, so why not give them the same d8 for hit dice? If we did, would it be too harsh on small characters to give them the d6 small creatures gain for hit dice?

3. Due to the metaphysical or abstract nature of hit points, why is only the Constitution modifier used? Would the other abilities represent other abstract aspects of hit points, such as Dexterity representing the reflexes aspect, equally well? What about Wisdom or Charisma representing divine favor or luck, etc.?

4. Could hit dice be gained in ways other than by leveling, such as a magic item?

5. Could a creature or character have more hit dice than its level?

That's it for now. Of course I have my own views on all of these questions, but instead of potentially biasing responses by putting my own thoughts down at this time, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the questions.

Thanks to all who take the time to reply, it is much appreciated!

 

[aco175]

Good points. Not sure how much is legacy from when wizards were frail and had 1d4, but if you survive and make it to higher levels, you get more power than the rest from your spells over HP.

NPCs and monsters get 1d8 from being medium, but these are also NPCs and monsters where the PCs are different and supposed to unique. We use those words for explaining everything else, so not sure if we should compare them.

I'm not sure if the classes with less HP make it up in other areas to keep classes 'balanced' like what 5e wants to do. I' m sure this is widely speculative.

 

[Phion]

To answer questions in order

1. Why would you choose a Barbarian after level 5 if you could just fireball a room? It is a simple response because anything more is simply excessive. At the end of the day it is a role playing game and how many hits you can take will define your role in the group dynamic. If you want a real world explanation, it ties into how harsh a life you have lived; when I was younger and did more martial arts I had leather like skin on the bottom of my feet from all the movement I did barefoot on a wooden floor, going back to martial arts after 8 years my feet are now soft and they are bleeding on the floor because I had been living a life of sloth.

2. See above. The need of the game as well as some people just doing things/ living in a way that makes them not equal in toughness to others.

3. There is an argument for this. However keep in mind 5e is all about keeping things simple so goes against design philosophy.

4. Sure why not. Not sure if there is a magic item that already does this officially, pretty sure I could cheese a current way to do it with a bit of time. I would be cool homebrewing a item that does such a thing.

5. Might argue against this. Why would you need to when you could just use features to increase HP or recover it? We already have ways to cheese our health beyond our normal baseline. Anything after that is just adding layers. If you need more layers to the game there is older editions and Pathfinder.

 

[Kobold Stew]

1. Because part of what is being abstracted is the ability to take a hit. That's why it is tied to class -- sorcerers haven't practiced taking a punch, etc., and barbarians have.

2. You could do this, and it would reduce differentiation between characters. Many groups (a majority, I expect) play with standard hit points per level -- that also reduces variation, but acieves the aim of leting the fighty-guys withstand being hit better than non-fighty guys.

3. Partly, legacy reasons; the game has constitution and wants it to do something. Partly, because while HP are abstracted, they are not independent of physical qualities. Constitution is the best ability to represent physical aspects of health that are being represented by HP. A case can be made for any of the abilities, but they (mostly) feed into the game in other ways. We know how Dex keeps you alive in the game: by helping you avoid being hit in the first place (Armor Class). Con reflects what happens after you are hit.

4. Sure.

5. "Level" is also abstract, so it becomes a matter of definitions. But you might want to look at how 3rd ed. incorporated both "level adjustment" and humanoid hit dice in their monstrous characters -- so a first level gnoll would have two "levels" of humanoid (no real abilities) and one level in Ranger (say) and functionally be a thirdlevel character, with three hit dice. Also in AD&D Rangers started with 2d8, and gained a d8 after that.

 

[Charlaquin]

1. Why would a barbarian earn a d12 for hit dice, while a sorcerer gains only a d6? What is the reason why some classes have larger hit die types than others?

I mean, the “real” (or at least Doylist) reason is tradition. Barbarians are traditionally tough, sorcerers are traditionally squishy. But if you want a Wattsonian explanation that fits the understanding of hit points and hit dice above, the training to become a Barbarian is more physically demanding than the training to become a Sorcerer. Even if a Barbarian may not necessarily be taller or weigh more, they are more physically conditioned to tolerate injury. There’s also probably an element of that abstract luck/training/whatever as well. Barbarians are front-line infantry, sorcerers are back-row artillery.

2. Medium creatures use a d8. Most PCs are medium in size, so why not give them the same d8 for hit dice? If we did, would it be too harsh on small characters to give them the d6 small creatures gain for hit dice?

Again, mostly tradition. But you could think of it as being a matter of their class training having a significant impact on their physique. Yes, it would be unbalanced for Small races to have a smaller hit die than r everyone else, unless you gave them some other advantage to compensate for the roughly -1 HP per level.

3. Due to the metaphysical or abstract nature of hit points, why is only the Constitution modifier used? Would the other abilities represent other abstract aspects of hit points, such as Dexterity representing the reflexes aspect, equally well? What about Wisdom or Charisma representing divine favor or luck, etc.

Again, tradition.

4. Could hit dice be gained in ways other than by leveling, such as a magic item?

Sure, I guess. There aren’t any such items in any official sources as far as I know, but if you wanted to make one yourself, there’s nothing stopping you.

5. Could a creature or character have more hit dice than its level?

Not by the official rules, but again, nothing’s stopping you if you want to homebrew something.

 

[Fanaelialae]

1. A barbarian has more hp than a sorcerer because they are meant to be tougher. That said, I think that the HD difference is largely due to legacy. You could certainly give barbarians and sorcerers the same HD, and then simply give barbarians additional mitigation to compensate. However, one of the nice things about HP is that the disparity is minimal at low level (around 6 HP at level 1) but increases significantly with level (63 HP at level 20).

2. You could give all medium sized characters a d8, assuming you provide classes that are meant to be tough with alternative mitigation. Small sized creatures could have a d6, but would need some additional mitigation as well.

Of course, you could go the other way and take away mitigation from less tough classes. For example, imagine if casting a spell reduced a caster's max HP by X for the rest of the day. A caster could have the same HP (and even AC) as the barbarian, but would be less tough than the the barbarian if they cast any spells.

3. Sacred cow?

4. Sure, why not?

5. Absolutely. If you convert monsters from the the MM to an equivalent level (such as for calculating an ECL for a monster companion), they'll frequently have more HD than their level. Simply because of how monsters are designed.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

1. Why would a barbarian earn a d12 for hit dice, while a sorcerer gains only a d6? What is the reason why some classes have larger hit die types than others?

2. Medium creatures use a d8. Most PCs are medium in size, so why not give them the same d8 for hit dice? If we did, would it be too harsh on small characters to give them the d6 small creatures gain for hit dice?

3. Due to the metaphysical or abstract nature of hit points, why is only the Constitution modifier used? Would the other abilities represent other abstract aspects of hit points, such as Dexterity representing the reflexes aspect, equally well? What about Wisdom or Charisma representing divine favor or luck, etc.?

4. Could hit dice be gained in ways other than by leveling, such as a magic item?

5. Could a creature or character have more hit dice than its level?

1. Crude old-fashioned attempts at class balance and role protection is the reason why some classes have larger HDs. The Barbarian has more because the assumption is he'll be in melee, and the extra HP are to encourage him to take that risk and make it more survivable.

2. I think this would make Small PCs less popular, but if you gave them something in exchange, it might not be a big issue.

3. Good question re: CON. It's because CON is otherwise an almost completely pointless/vestigial stat in 5E. Because HP are so useful (and they are), the bonus HP from CON are a big deal. Likewise I'm pretty sure 95% of the reason Concentration exists as a check (not just a limit to number of spells maintained) is to try and give CON a reason to exist when we're way past that.

4. There's no really good reason they couldn't be, though it might be better to have it be a fixed amount of HP. I daresay some item or another historically has done this.

5. Yes, and I'm very sure it's happened in at least one edition with some obscure class or another (I seem to think some class in something started with 2d4 HP or something). It's probably not a great idea though. Happens all the time with monsters.

You're missing:

6. Why is the HD rolled to regain HP mechanic in 5E is half-baked?

And the answer is because WotC realized they needed to not make people reliant on magical healing, but hadn't come up with any particularly good solution by the time they "went live" with 5E, so went with a really underdeveloped approach. Worlds Without Number does the obvious thing and makes magical healing "use up" these HD, and I hope DND2024 takes a similar approach personally.

 

[Tonguez]

in the original game everyone got d6 Hit points on the basis that a commoner had d4 and weapons did d6. ie a single good whack could kill a commoner and a base hero was able to survive a little better.
All weapons doing d6 also makes sense since a skilled knife fighter can kill a commoner as easily as a barbarian with an axe. Characters differetiated themselves based on how skilled they are with a weapon not on how big their weapon damage dice are

Unfortunately someone decided that bigger weapons should do more damage and thus was born the HP spiral that has existed ever since.

I'd be happy if every character got d8, give Barbarians damage reduction and small d6 characters a dodge bonus

 

[DND_Reborn]

Thanks to everyone for replying so far. I want to give it a day or two before I reply to the responses, just to give others a chance to chime in.

You're missing:

6. Why is the HD rolled to regain HP mechanic in 5E is half-baked?

And the answer is because WotC realized they needed to not make people reliant on magical healing, but hadn't come up with any particularly good solution by the time they "went live" with 5E, so went with a really underdeveloped approach. Worlds Without Number does the obvious thing and makes magical healing "use up" these HD, and I hope DND2024 takes a similar approach personally.

LOL actually I didn't miss it. I understand this approach to healing hit points by spending hit dice, but we can discuss it further later on if you wish.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

LOL actually I didn't miss it. I understand this approach to healing hit points by spending hit dice, but we can discuss it further later on if you wish.

Fair enough lol it's kind of my biggest question about HD with 5E!

I had another thought on 4 - magic items - you already gain HP from stuff like items with give you bonus CON or set your CON to a value (which exist in 5E), so gaining HD from a magic item (including spendable HD for healing) would probably be fine. The only issue is that if you're in a game that uses rolled, not fixed HP from HD, when do you roll them, and do you ever re-roll them?