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5E Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented

5ekyu

Adventurer
Yep. The halfling rule still works completely differently from the druid "rule." One says halflings only have a walking speed and shows them built like small humans, physically incapable of flight. The other fails to say anything about druids physically being unable to put on metal armor. There is no explanation in 1e, 2e, 3e or 5e that says why druids don't wear metal armor, except for how it affects their magical abilities(1e and 3e). If you can point me to something that says that druids are physically incapable of putting on metal armor, your equivalence will cease to be false. Can you show that to me?



You do understand that "won't wear" means it's a choice they make, right?
I do realize that when the player agreed to play in a game where the rule was druids wont wear metal armor then yes, that was a choice they made.

If they preferred to play in a game where the rule was "druids will wear whatever armor they care to, they should play in those.

See how that works?
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I do realize that when the player agreed to play in a game where the rule was druids wont wear metal armor then yes, that was a choice they made.

First, there is no such rule. It's a fluff comment and nothing more. Second, says who? I've never sat down and said to the DM, "My character will never go back on what he believes in." I've also never played under a tyrant DM who demands that my characters don't go back on what they believe in.

If you want to be a tyrant who won't let a PC change his mind about something, go ahead.

See how that works?
 

lingual

Explorer
So if a DM says NO to a druid wearing full plate, he's a tyrant? It's obviously against the spirit of the game to have druids wear full plate.

If someone wants their druids to wear full pkate and carry machine guns in their game, fine i dont care.

Just getting a hissy fit about "player agency" and "tyrany" is sort of childish. Like you would actually be so offended if your DM penalized you for wearing full plate that u would accuse them of being a dictator and rage quit?
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Never seen someone go against their beliefs before? I have. It's really common.



Tyrants don't keep players long.



This False Equivalence again? Those ships cannot move that far. It's not possible. Druids are capable of putting on metal armor. It is possible.



A DM following the rules is a tyrant?

Just when I thought your argument couldn’t get any more ridiculous. Hey, shine on, there’s no point in me even trying to have this discussion if that’s your position.
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
First, there is no such rule. It's a fluff comment and nothing more. Second, says who? I've never sat down and said to the DM, "My character will never go back on what he believes in." I've also never played under a tyrant DM who demands that my characters don't go back on what they believe in.

If you want to be a tyrant who won't let a PC change his mind about something, go ahead.

See how that works?
Ok, so, hey, I doubt we are ever going to get anywhere if you insist on saying that the druid 5e armor proficiency listing is not a rule..

You can decide to treat it as fluff in your games, that's fine.
.
So, if that's the basis of your position, then, we are literally reading different books and have no basis for further discussion on that.

As for your imaginary tyrant... I never tell my players their characters cannot ho back on or change what they believe. I do tell my players the mechanisms by which we as a group can change the rules we agreed to play by and I do expect them to abide by those, not just to decide a rule doesnt apply to them (the player) any more. So, if one of those rules is "druids will not wear metal armor" and a player decides in play to just stop following it, it's the **player** going back on what they agreed to that is the problem.

But hey, maybe you consider table rules just fluff too?


That would seem to be not necessarily dependent on the rulebook itself.



So, hey, you have a great day in whatever ruleset you are using.
 

5e duids don't get anything better than what clerics get, and 5e clerics can wear half plate at least.
AC isn't the be-all end-all of the combat pillar. 5e Druids beat the pants of the cleric in terms of battlefield control, summoning. They are generally better at blasting (aside for cantrip-level damage; druid attack cantrips are notably behind the curve even discounting domain bonuses) and of all things, healing efficiency. Aside from the combat pillar, they have significantly better utility as well.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So if a DM says NO to a druid wearing full plate, he's a tyrant? It's obviously against the spirit of the game to have druids wear full plate.

It's against the spirit of the game for a druid to wear full plate long enough to sneak into a castle? I don't think so. The game has always been about ingenuity. That action is entirely within the spirit of the game.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
AC isn't the be-all end-all of the combat pillar. 5e Druids beat the pants of the cleric in terms of battlefield control, summoning. They are generally better at blasting (aside for cantrip-level damage; druid attack cantrips are notably behind the curve even discounting domain bonuses) and of all things, healing efficiency. Aside from the combat pillar, they have significantly better utility as well.

What armor you use in 5e is almost entirely irrelevant. The difference between the max AC of studded leather and plate is 1 point of AC, and the plate wearer gets disadvantage on stealth.
 

lingual

Explorer
It's against the spirit of the game for a druid to wear full plate long enough to sneak into a castle? I don't think so. The game has always been about ingenuity. That action is entirely within the spirit of the game.

LOL

Are u serious? I suppose that would be ok with me. Just no druid powers while you're wearing it.

"But the rulebook says nothing bad happens if i wear full plate! You are a tyrant! I rage quit!"

Dont let the door hit you on the way out.
 

Ohmyn

First Post
Why is that halfling incapable of flying across the chasm? Is it perhaps that there is a rule to that effect the players all play by?

Nothing stops the Halfling from doing so besides their physical incapability. The Halfling is still free to run and jump across the chasm and flap their arms in an attempt to fly. They'll fail to fly because they lack the physical ability to do so, and if their jump check fails to reach the other side, they fall into the chasm. Even if they lack the physical ability to succeed, they still possess the physical ability to try. The point is that's their choice to risk the consequences of their actions. Telling the Halfling that they can't attempt to fly across the chasm would be railroading their character.

Now what happens when the Druid puts on metal armor? Is something physically stopping them from doing so? What is causing them to lack the physical capability to put on the armor? Because the Sage Advice explicitly clarified the answer to that is that nothing in the game system prevents this, and nobody can point to anything in the game system that says otherwise. The Druid is 100% physically capable of putting on any armor they wish, and there are no penalties for doing so, unless they otherwise lack proficiency in its use.
 


Ohmyn

First Post
But a position paper on "smithing vs tanning - which is more natural?" would not make the cut.

I would like to point out how much it amuses me that Druids are allowed to be blacksmiths. Even if the DM restricts metal armor, your Druid can still be a metal item merchant, can still fight with any metal weapons they wish, and may cover themselves in as much metal as they wish, so long as it provides no armor bonus.

I can play a Dwarven Druid that wears a vest with clips to hang 100lbs. of metal light hammers on my body that I can pull off and throw at enemies. At each side of my waist I can harness a 4lb. metal battleaxe, as well as hundreds of metal sling bullets. I can craft all of my equipment myself with my Smith's Tools, which I am proficient in. I can then craft all the metal armor and metal shields of my choosing, and sell them to anyone I wish, as well as equip my party if they need a replacement or upgrade.

Heck, I could start my own traveling steel supply caravan. I can use my Nature and Survival skills to find my own deposits to mine, rather than purchasing premade materials, so I can smelt my own steel from iron ore. As a Dwarf I am naturally double proficient in understanding the historical significance of any stone structures that I find along the way. Maybe I'll even get lucky and mine some gold, silver, or platinum to make some bling. If not, I'm sure I can melt down some spare coinage after I start up my own steel industry. All this is 100% AL legal as it only requires the PHB, but for my extra book I could really be rolling in the dough if I made the mining easier with Mold Earth.

It's just too bad it will be physically impossible for me to strap a shield to my arm when I show off my merchandise.
 
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5ekyu

Adventurer
Nothing stops the Halfling from doing so besides their physical incapability. The Halfling is still free to run and jump across the chasm and flap their arms in an attempt to fly. They'll fail to fly because they lack the physical ability to do so, and if their jump check fails to reach the other side, they fall into the chasm. Even if they lack the physical ability to succeed, they still possess the physical ability to try. The point is that's their choice to risk the consequences of their actions. Telling the Halfling that they can't attempt to fly across the chasm would be railroading their character.

Now what happens when the Druid puts on metal armor? Is something physically stopping them from doing so? What is causing them to lack the physical capability to put on the armor? Because the Sage Advice explicitly clarified the answer to that is that nothing in the game system prevents this, and nobody can point to anything in the game system that says otherwise. The Druid is 100% physically capable of putting on any armor they wish, and there are no penalties for doing so, unless they otherwise lack proficiency in its use.
Again, you try and argue about the rule as if it said cant. It didnt. The rule says "will not wear". That is the rule in play (barring house rules) and do that's the rule you agreed to when choosing to be playing a druid.

If you, then player, agreed to play by that rule, why are you then trying to ho back on that in play and going all off with "tyrant" or "railroad" claims when it actually does apply to your character in play?

Let's put it another way - if the rules at the table are "no pvp" then you and the other players have agreed to not have your characters do those things.

Do you then get upset if the GM stops things when, in game, you decide to go attack a PC cuz "there's nothing physically stopping the character!!!!"?

Is the GM a tyrant or railroading by not letting you the player go back and violate the rules you agreed to?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Again, you try and argue about the rule as if it said cant. It didnt. The rule says "will not wear". That is the rule in play (barring house rules) and do that's the rule you agreed to when choosing to be playing a druid.

If you, then player, agreed to play by that rule, why are you then trying to ho back on that in play and going all off with "tyrant" or "railroad" claims when it actually does apply to your character in play?

Because a druid changing his mind is no different than a fire wizard deciding at 5th level that he now like ice and is going to be an ice wizard. Putting on armor or not is nothing but a choice druids make.
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
Because a druid changing his mind is no different than a fire wizard deciding at 5th level that he now like ice and is going to be an ice wizard. Putting on armor or not is nothing but a choice druids make.
Agsin, the rule is that druids will not wear metal armor.

If there was a rule at the table which said fire wizards eont become ice wizards, that would apply too.

If the table rule is " PC will not attack other PCs " would that be fluff your character can choose to change their mind on mid-scene when convenient?
 


AC isn't the be-all end-all of the combat pillar.

No it isn't, but all other things being equal, a better AC makes you flat better than a worse AC.

5e Druids beat the pants of the cleric in terms of battlefield control, summoning.

You mean Conjure Animals? The spell that in 5e has been nerfed to require concentration, so when you are hit (which you will be if the DM denies you anything better than hide armour) everything vanishes?

They are generally better at blasting (aside for cantrip-level damage; druid attack cantrips are notably behind the curve even discounting domain bonuses)

Light and Tempest clerics are well ahead of druids in terms of blasting, and they can do it in half plate/full plate.

and of all things, healing efficiency.
Well behind Life clerics in half plate, and in-combat healing is pretty inefficient use of an action anyway.

Aside from the combat pillar, they have significantly better utility as well.

Agreed, in the exploration pillar they excel.

And they are passible in combat if the DM drops an Ankheg shell breastplate along their path. Which I think most people coming from earlier editions would do. I think the problem is the PHB does not make it sufficiently clear in the equipment section that alternative materials are possible, so RAW-DMs coming to D&D cold are unaware of the intent.
 


It has occured to me that a druid restricted to hide armour has about the worst AC in the whole game. Thanks to Mage Armor and Shield Wizards and Sorcerers are probably packing an AC of around 20 - not all the time, but when it counts; and rogues are probably going to max out dex early for an AC of 17 in studded leather - not to mention the other defences available to rogues.

Some warlocks might be worse, but in exchange they are very good at blasting.
 
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