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"Why the Empire Strikes Back Is Overrated"

Dioltach

Adventurer
An article on the BBC website.

I don't really agree with its premise. "If The Empire Strikes Back had been a one-off, I could have forgiven it by now. But what about all the many films that have used it as a model – all the films that have tarnished Star Wars by contradicting its mythos and obsessing over its family trees?" Surely that's an issue with the subsequent movies, not Empire?
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
That's my theory. It's hacks who can't innovate. Hire Timothey Zahn for storyboarding.

Still claiming ANH is the best isn't crazy.
 

It sounds like whoever wrote that article doesn't really understand Empire, or what it makes it work as a film. And no, saying that the original Star Wars is better is not crazy or controversial. But I respectfully disagree.

Some of his points are even completely wrong. Such as saying the emperor is a jedi. He's not. He's powerful with the dark side of the force, but he is no jedi. He even speaks dismissive in regards to 'jedi's and their weapons' in the third film, to highlight this.

But also his criticism regarding the opening crawl of Empire is silly. As if the new threat diminishes the victory from the first movie. I don't think that is true at all. And surely a new threat must be established? I think Empire does this remarkably well, and does a great job at defying expectations. It takes the material of the first film, which was very light hearted, and adds a more serious narrative with higher stakes.
 
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Dioltach

Adventurer
Some of his points are even completely wrong. Such as saying the emperor is a jedi. He's not. He's powerful with the dark side of the force, but he is no jedi. He even speaks dismissive in regards to 'jedi's and their weapons' in the third film, to highlight this.
Actually, I get where the author is coming from with this one. In Star Wars, Vader is something of an outsider, an unknown quantity to the Imperial officers, someone who has strange abilities that don't fit their carefully regimented world. They sneer at him and his "antiquated beliefs", but they fear him. Making the Emperor a Force user, and Vader's "master", in Empire and Jedi diminishes Vader. His powers are legitimised, and he becomes little more than an extension of the Emperor.
 


ardoughter

Adventurer
I get where the author is coming from, but as sequels go, Empire is a good one. I think the rot in Star Wars starts in Return. The Luke, Vader, Emperor story is pretty good, the Deathstar 2 is meh and the Battle of Endor changes the Imperials from scary bad guys to incompetent idiots.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
His powers are legitimised, and he becomes little more than an extension of the Emperor.
Agreed.

Honestly, the whole thing goes in the bin when you realize the eradication of the Jedi happened in living memory - everyone at that table scoffing at Vader's powers was born before Order 66 was given. We have to jump through hoops to rationalize Han Solo's skepticism as well. Bit of a mess, really.
 

Order 66 wasn't introduced until the prequels, so for the sake of this movie, I try to ignore it. There is a lot of stuff that the prequels added, that is problematic for the overall plot. It would be unfair to hold this against Empire.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Order 66 wasn't introduced until the prequels, so for the sake of this movie, I try to ignore it. There is a lot of stuff that the prequels added, that is problematic for the overall plot. It would be unfair to hold this against Empire.
The point is that, overall, consistency was not actually a prime concern - good story for the moment was more important than making sure everything across all the movies makes a lot of sense.

If lack of consistency is an issue for you, then this is going to be a point against every movie beyond the first.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Agreed.

Honestly, the whole thing goes in the bin when you realize the eradication of the Jedi happened in living memory - everyone at that table scoffing at Vader's powers was born before Order 66 was given. We have to jump through hoops to rationalize Han Solo's skepticism as well. Bit of a mess, really.
Yep. The Clone Wars needed to have happened longer ago, or after Order 66.

But the best to least best ranking for the OT is;

Return of The Jedi
Star Wars (A New Hope)
Empire Strikes Back
 

Zardnaar

Legend
The Jedi are Uber rare though in the star wars galaxy and somewhat secretive.

People knew they exist but they're rarer than US. Navy seals in the real world.


We see more onscreen than the average galactic citizen.

That's more of a prequel problem though.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I do think Star Wars is a better film with a more interesting world and interpersonal dynamics.
I don't think anyone's gonna get to upset with that.

It's understandable, as a kid SW better, as Adult ESB.

Other stuff

Opinion Jedi also changed as I got older. Still live it, Vader/Luke stuff, space battle.

Deathstar II meh.
 

wicked cool

Explorer
whats scary is they cant replicate it-Almost 40 years and for live action its still the pinnacle in the star wars universe. Almost every time vader shows up its the coolest part of a movie/cartoon etc (he is the best part of rogue one)

I truly believe star wars cant recover and there will be a continuing effort to discredit this movie as time goes by.

I tuly believe a Vader movie where he is hunting down the jedi would be a blockbuster and would surpass the last 3 movies. What I cant understand is why they cant their acts together
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
whats scary is they cant replicate it-Almost 40 years and for live action its still the pinnacle in the star wars universe. Almost every time vader shows up its the coolest part of a movie/cartoon etc (he is the best part of rogue one)

I truly believe star wars cant recover and there will be a continuing effort to discredit this movie as time goes by.

I tuly believe a Vader movie where he is hunting down the jedi would be a blockbuster and would surpass the last 3 movies. What I cant understand is why they cant their acts together
As a more casual fan of Star Wars (I didn't see ANH or Empire until their re-releases in 1997), I think the biggest problem with Star Wars is that they can't let the original movies go. Everything circles around that trilogy as the single most important thing that ever happened in that galaxy. The biggest problem with the prequels, to my mind, was the decision to keep circling around the original trilogy instead of moving the heck on. They should have just left the idea of "Episodes I-III" as a fun idea to build fanfics and other media around, and new movies should have been the vehicle to introduce new concepts and new characters into the universe.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The Jedi are Uber rare though in the star wars galaxy and somewhat secretive.

People knew they exist but they're rarer than US. Navy seals in the real world.
Secretive? They have a huge frelling temple right in the middle of the Republic's capitol! They are used for diplomatic missions throughout the galaxy, leaders of worlds know them on sight! Every darned one of the apparently has the rank of "General" in an interstellar war!

Plus, we are talking about generals who were alive in the time of the Clone Wars - possibly already in military service themselves at the time of those wars only 20 years before, scoffing at Jedi powers. These same military men were likely part of executing Order 66!

It makes no sense for them to be dismissive.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Secretive? They have a huge frelling temple right in the middle of the Republic's capitol! They are used for diplomatic missions throughout the galaxy, leaders of worlds know them on sight! Every darned one of the apparently has the rank of "General" in an interstellar war!

Plus, we are talking about generals who were alive in the time of the Clone Wars - possibly already in military service themselves at the time of those wars only 20 years before, scoffing at Jedi powers. These same military men were likely part of executing Order 66!

It makes no sense for them to be dismissive.
10000 out of trillion.

Germany had several hundred generals. How many can you name outside of Rommel, Manstein and a few others.

US senators. You know they exist. How many have you talked to?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Germany had several hundred generals. How many can you name outside of Rommel, Manstein and a few others.

US senators. You know they exist. How many have you talked to?
You see, that's the point - I don't have to name them. I have to know they exist, know their function, and what general powers they possess. I know German Generals existed, had massive military might at their command, walked over large portions of Europe and took the most massive mobilization of out country's military might to beat. I do not scoff at those generals.

And those generals all lived and died before I was born.

Now, remember that scene in Star Wars, where a bunch of military commanders are making fun of the Jedi old religion to Vader's face. The men in the room with Vader were around for the Clone Wars. Any of them over the age of 40 were very likely in the military during the Clone Wars. They likely served under those Jedi generals!
 

Nebulous

Legend
I get where the author is coming from, but as sequels go, Empire is a good one. I think the rot in Star Wars starts in Return. The Luke, Vader, Emperor story is pretty good, the Deathstar 2 is meh and the Battle of Endor changes the Imperials from scary bad guys to incompetent idiots.
As if laser bolts don't kill troopers easy enough, rocks thrown by child size monkeys also kills them just as fast :(
 

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