"Why the Empire Strikes Back Is Overrated"

[doctorbadwolf]

Because it makes me sad, in much the same way that it does when someone says that Dane Cook is the greatest comedian America has ever produced.

But I will not further disturb your love of the fuzzy little proto-Jar Jars.

This sort of thing is why so many younger SW fans stay away from the larger SW fandom.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This sort of thing is why so many younger SW fans stay away from the larger SW fandom.

So true. I have never met a young person who argued a point with certainty, convinced that they were correct.

Young people, unlike the olds, don't really have any actual options or beliefs. Most of them are just like, "Yeah, anything is good. Like, modern stuff sucks. If an old says that old stuff is good, he's probably right. Although, I mean, c'mon, what did Citizen Kane ever do for cinema? It's no Sucker Punch."

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So true. I have never met a young person who argued a point with certainty, convinced that they were correct.

Young people, unlike the olds, don't really have any actual options or beliefs. Most of them are just like, "Yeah, anything is good. Like, modern stuff sucks. If an old says that old stuff is good, he's probably right. Although, I mean, c'mon, what did Citizen Kane ever do for cinema? It's no Sucker Punch."

Oh lord. Ignored.

 

[MGibster]

You know what I do when I meet someone who says RotJ or ANH are the best Star Wars movies? I tell them ESB is my favorite and then we move on to talking about what we love so much about the movies. My favorite character is Luke Skywalker but I'm not going to begrudge a Han fan. Han is cool!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You know what I do when I meet someone who says RotJ or ANH are the best Star Wars movies? I tell them ESB is my favorite and then we move on to talking about what we love so much about the movies. My favorite character is Luke Skywalker but I'm not going to begrudge a Han fan. Han is cool!

I'm not sure the analogy fully holds. Han and Luke are the ESB and ANH.

RotJ is more of the Wedge Antilles; I mean, apparently there is someone who likes it the most, but I'm still shocked to see someone say, "You know who the best character in the original series is? Wedge. It's gotta be Wedge."

 

[Dioltach]

You know what I do when I meet someone who says RotJ or ANH are the best Star Wars movies? I tell them ESB is my favorite and then we move on to talking about what we love so much about the movies. My favorite character is Luke Skywalker but I'm not going to begrudge a Han fan. Han is cool!

Yes, remember when discussions were about hearing another person's views and ideas, considering their arguments and hopefully broadening your own horizons? And not about blindly refusing to change your own position?

 

[wingsandsword]

Some of his points are even completely wrong. Such as saying the emperor is a jedi. He's not. He's powerful with the dark side of the force, but he is no jedi. He even speaks dismissive in regards to 'jedi's and their weapons' in the third film, to highlight this.

Before the prequels were made, Lucas prohibited Star Wars authors from exploring Palpatine's origins or backstory, other than to say vaguely he was a prominent Senator of the old Republic that maneuvered his way to absolute power.

His identity as a Sith wasn't explored until the Prequels. Until then, there was nothing saying he wasn't a sort of renegade Jedi of some kind, the title "Dark Lord of the Sith" was only used for Vader at that point. While Episode I very strongly hinted and implied Palpatine and Sidious were the same person, officially it wasn't revealed until 2005.

It honestly sounds like the author based his criticism, in part, on half-remembered Star Wars lore from the early-to-mid 1990's, before the prequels (or he only hazily remembers them).

 

[Legatus Legionis]

.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You know what I do when I meet someone who says RotJ or ANH are the best Star Wars movies? I tell them ESB is my favorite and then we move on to talking about what we love so much about the movies. My favorite character is Luke Skywalker but I'm not going to begrudge a Han fan. Han is cool!

I totally get people loving ESB the most! For me, a good SW conversation centers around talking about why we love our favorites, not crapping on the things we don't like in our not-favorites.

I mean, we're adults. I don't even rag on jar-jar anymore.

But Jedi is, thematically and in the context of the saga as a whole without being meta about what was planned when, has inarguably the single most important moment in the entire franchise, and that's hard to beat.

If we disregard the rescue, which i enjoy rewatching more than the hoth sequence, though both are rad, and the ultimate victory (not when the emporer dies, but when Luke throws away his weapon), then I'd have to go with Star Wars. ESB is great. I love it. But ANH and RoTJ are just two of the best action adventure films ever made, IMO.

I mean, I'd put ESB just below them. Like, it's close.

But Luke in RoTJ is just so satisfying and excellent. The framing of his look next to Vader, the second battle between father and son, where all cards are on the table and Luke isn't an apprentice anymore, Han finally actually showing the change in character from the other two films, rather than starting the movie back to where he was before the end of the film before, and yes, the Ewoks. I think some folks are too stuck on the meta wrt Ewoks to just watch the movie as it is and enjoy it, which is a bummer.

The empire doesn't look incompetent in RoTJ, the space battle is a narrow victory, and the ewoks just come out looking clever and determined. I don't think anyone would make the same arguments about the ewoks if they looked different.

 

[MGibster]

I totally get people loving ESB the most! For me, a good SW conversation centers around talking about why we love our favorites, not crapping on the things we don't like in our not-favorites.

Heck, yeah. And I absolutely adore Return of the Jedi! I can't get mad at you for it being your favorite.

I mean, we're adults. I don't even rag on jar-jar anymore.

Me neither. I came to grips with Jar-Jar when I realized no Star Wars movie could live up to my childhood. Plus I felt bad for Ahmed Best the actor who played Jar-Jar.

But Jedi is, thematically and in the context of the saga as a whole without being meta about what was planned when, has inarguably the single most important moment in the entire franchise, and that's hard to beat.

Preach it! The scene where Vader turns on the Emperor to protect Luke was great.

But Luke in RoTJ is just so satisfying and excellent. The framing of his look next to Vader, the second battle between father and son, where all cards are on the table and Luke isn't an apprentice anymore, Han finally actually showing the change in character from the other two films, rather than starting the movie back to where he was before the end of the film before, and yes, the Ewoks. I think some folks are too stuck on the meta wrt Ewoks to just watch the movie as it is and enjoy it, which is a bummer.

I'm fine with the Ewoks. We're talking about a series modeled off of old serials like Flash Gordon. Family fare. I liked Ewoks when I was a kid and I still like them today.

Here's a song for all you Ewok haters!

The empire doesn't look incompetent in RoTJ, the space battle is a narrow victory, and the ewoks just come out looking clever and determined. I don't think anyone would make the same arguments about the ewoks if they looked different.

I also like how Luke's victory wasn't connected to the Rebel victory.