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Why the Encounter Powers hate? (Maneuvers = Encounter)

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Unlike other players, I've actually understood the concept of AEDU from the start. The logic behind it when it was released. Why some fighting techniques can be pulled off only once per fight, or once per day. It all boils down to the 'meta' energy inside a character's body since it taxes them, hence short rests.

I think even this breaks down. If you have to recover energy from exerting one daily, how is it you have another daily you can fire off right away? Same with encounter powers.

A better way to reflect that sort of justification would be having a pool of tokens that reflect your energy. A power costs a token or two. You are limited in the number of times you can pull powers off... but you can choose the mix of powers you pull off until that energy pool is exhausted.
 

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Zustiur

Explorer
billd91 has a very good point. AEDU would be a lot less 'in your face' if you could chop and change the powers you used from the ones you knew. Say at around 9th level, you've got 3 encounter powers available. Why not allow the use of the same one 3 times in an encounter? Why force the use of different tricks or expenditures of effort? There's no actual logic behind it.

Every argument (that I've seen) in favour of AEDU has a counter-argument.
Every piece of descriptive logic (that I've seen) to explain AEDU falls to pieces when examined properly.

For me (and I gather many others...) AEDU makes the RPG into more of an rpG.
There is no single consistent roleplaying reason to explain encounter powers for any class. Thus it is clear that they exist to make the 'game' work. If DnD were more like Hero Quest or Warhammer Quest, I'd have no problem with encounter powers. But this is DnD. The game-iness needs to be less in your face.

And to clarify - 'in your face' in this context really means 'more gamey than it used to be'. Hit points, experience etc are obviously game concepts, but adding more and more game concepts isn't helping the role play.
 

pauljathome

First Post
If you design your game to be Cinematic (movie-like) it makes perfect sense. Am I off base here?

I'm not sure that I agree.

In my opinion the best game for over the top cinematic action is Feng Shui.

This games does NOT have encounter or daily powers. There are some powers (mostly Fu powers) that use an in game resource that limits how often they can be used but other powers can be spammed constantly.

What it DOES have is a very, very freeform system of stunts. If you do something cool, you get a bonus. If you do something boring, you get a penalty or fail. Where "something cool" really does mean "something new that we haven't seen recently (or at all).
 

Tallifer

Hero
I would like to enlighten to those who cannot understand the reason behind why encounter powers can only be used 'once'. You see, encounter powers are like 'tricks up your sleeve'. When you use it once to a single enemy, that enemy will remember that trick again, so it will not work the second time most likely. That's why you have to use a new 'trick up your sleeve' on him. Same as encounter powers.

That is a very insightful way to look at encounter powers.
 

Tallifer

Hero
billd91 has a very good point. AEDU would be a lot less 'in your face' if you could chop and change the powers you used from the ones you knew. Say at around 9th level, you've got 3 encounter powers available. Why not allow the use of the same one 3 times in an encounter? Why force the use of different tricks or expenditures of effort? There's no actual logic behind it.

Every argument (that I've seen) in favour of AEDU has a counter-argument.
Every piece of descriptive logic (that I've seen) to explain AEDU falls to pieces when examined properly.

I am a staunch supporter of all the exciting changes which the Fourth Edition brought to the table. However I do accept that there are problems such as what you describe.

My solution on the other hand is to push the system further. Think of a non-broken way to implement a greater choice of encounter powers.

The same goes for things like wish lists and treasure parcels: in the interests of roleplaying and cooperative storytelling, as well as fairness and fellow feeling, I have delineated an even more radical approach. [sblock]1. During the adventure, I roleplay the treasure. “You find a heap of gold coins and other valuable items in the orc chieftain’s chambers.” “You find many trophies, components, treasures and what look like magical items in the wizard’s library.” “You come across a well-stocked armoury.” The players can likewise roleplay what they found immediately: “We shove all the loot on a mule.” “Do I find a wand?” “Indeed you do: when you get out the dungeon, you can figure out what it is.”

2. Add up the total amount of treasure a party should get for a given level (add the gold piece value of the parcels together: there are tables on character optimization boards which give these numbers, but it is not hard to do). Divide this by the number of players: each player will have that abstract number measured in gold pieces, but the treasure can take whatever form they wish.

3. At the end of an adventure (not every session: that is too disruptive), the players can “find out” what they found in the adventure. That is, out of character the player chooses what his character found in the dungeon, limited by the gold-piece value of his portion. Players who cannot be bothered to choose can ask me for an item. I encourage the players to roleplay their discoveries and give colourful reasons for finding what they do.

4. This means that players are not limited to one item of a specific level. Under the official system two players cannot choose an item of the same level or get two low level items instead, et cetera. My system allows all the roleplaying during the adventure that people want, but very simple bookkeeping at the end of the day and absolutely no frustration. Indeed, I allow people to save up their treasure points for another level if they imagine some great magical treasure would suit their story better.[/sblock]

Likewise I love to overcome almost any onerous restriction with radical reflavouring (refluffing). Of course that sometimes requires an equally open-minded playing group. No Genasi in this world? My grandfather met the daughter of a mountain spirit: happens all the time in fairy tales.
 
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Trance-Zg

First Post
No one really hates encounter powers...

No one really hates daily powers...

or at-will powers...

...or even utility powers...


But I think that EVERYONE hates that all the classes have the same amount of the same power type on the same level with no chance of reducing/increasing changing them one for another.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
No one really hates encounter powers...

No one really hates daily powers...

or at-will powers...

...or even utility powers...


But I think that EVERYONE hates that all the classes have the same amount of the same power type on the same level with no chance of reducing/increasing changing them one for another.

No, I think some people really hate encounter powers (too gamey), or daily powers (too hard to balance), or at-will powers (doesn't feel like magic). And I personally have no problem with the consistent framework of power gain in 4e pre-E, and I've seen other posters state their preference for it.

I do not, however, remember anyone complaining about utility powers. But I'm sure it's happened. :)
 

If you want "not working if you have seen it used", why not just allow the maneuver to be used at will at an encounter, but against any opponent who has seen you using it, you have disadvantage. (Maybe you even have advantage, if you use it against an opponent who has never encountered such a maneuver at all)
 

Viktyr Gehrig

First Post
I think you have to be very careful that the answer to 'Fighters lack power' does not become 'Play a Magic Fighter'.

I want to play a big guy that smashes stuff with his Halberd without being forced to become a semi-spell caster to be 'balanced'.

That's the thing. Have you sat down and really read Book of Nine Swords? Because they have nine different fighting styles with various degrees of 'magic', including the Iron Heart and Diamond Mind styles which involve superhuman skill and focus, but not supernatural ability.

Being able to shrug off debilitating effects isn't a magical ability, and neither is being able to make special extra-hard attacks on a limited basis.

As much as I loved the balance of AEDU, it's obviously not a direct matter of energy with Martial characters like it is with Arcane and Divine ones. If it was just a matter of energy your Level 1 Attack Encounter Power a second time instead of your Level 3 Attack Encounter - since Martial Powers aren't "memorized" or "prayed for" or in any other way externally manifested and harnessed for release ahead of time.

Exactly. This, combined with forgetting your lower level attack powers, is a big part of why the AEDU just feels unforgivably contrived-- if characters kept all of their powers they learned as they leveled up and had a certain number of 'encounter points' and 'daily points' to spend on them, the whole thing would have felt considerably more natural and probably would have been closer to the effect they were shooting for in the first place.

Combine that with a Psionic Augment 'extra effort' system and at-wills that scaled a little better with level, and you might have had a really good system.

To some extent the Essentials books made this more feasible by just giving Martial character a single Encounter Power that was an attack rider and then boosting the number of times you could use it in an encounter like a Power Pool.

As tolerant as I am of Encounter and Daily powers for Martial characters, I still stand behind my belief that they should-- more than any other classes-- rely more on robust at-will powers than having extensive resources to manage.
 

Uller

Adventurer
No one really hates encounter powers...

No one really hates daily powers...

or at-will powers...

...or even utility powers...


But I think that EVERYONE hates that all the classes have the same amount of the same power type on the same level with no chance of reducing/increasing changing them one for another.

I don't hate any of them. As a dm I tend to build my adventures around an encounter/day framework as suggested by 4e (and did so even in 2e). So encounter powers are okay with me. What I find annoying is that you are forced to pick this or that....as a player who prefers wizard and rogue characters that are more useful out of combat maybe I think my character is already super enough at blasting foes...maybe I want a power that hides me or opens a door or helps me sweet talk the barmaid...AEDU says "too bad! You take fireball!"
 

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