Why the Encounter Powers hate? (Maneuvers = Encounter)

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I just don't like comic book superhero-style combat.

Yes, a fighter forcing his target back, against its will, is truly the height of gonzo, comib-book combat.

 

[BobTheNob]

My experience is that classes actually feel more different in play under 4e than previous versions. While fighters may play more similar to Wizards in 4e, playing a Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, or Ranger feel dramatically different from one another in play because their abilities and features make them interface with the game and the fiction in radically different ways. Likewise playing a sorcerer feels dramatically different from playing a wizard. In previous versions of the game (3e/PF in particular) there are basically two ways to interface with the game and thus the fiction. Rangers and Fighters feel almost identical. Same goes for spell casters of all stripes.

In 4e Barbarians feel like out of control rage machines. Fighters feel like disciplined combatants who take advantage of every opportunity presented to them. In 3e the Barbarian uses rage and acts just like the Fighter would.

(My eyebrows are furrowing as I try to think how to respond to this).

The BIG criticism leveled as AEDU was homogenization. The concept that 4e achieved balance by moving classes into the AEDU power structure, and in doing so stripped them of there individuality. Thats the argument.

You may disagree with it, but fact is that there is a whole section of the community who dont.

I am part of the community that think 4e homogenized classes, and I came to that conclusion after playing a campaign that moved a party from 1st level to 28th over a 2.5 year period. I came to the conclusion during this campaign and then, AFTER independently coming to this concussion, found that alot of people out there agreed with me. I dont think 4e homogenized because other people do, and I dont think it homogenized because of theoretical musing and pointing at rule snippets. I think it homogenized because I personally saw and felt it happen during over the course of our campaign.

Now, I agree, 4e did have differentiation between classes. I can read the rules even now and pluck out the elements. But what classes feel like during play is what matters.

That is where I find this post casternating...because it is the exact diametric opposite of my experience. Classes were absolutely not distinct. Even my players were shrugging there shoulders at the lack of personnel identity by the end.

Its strange how 2 people can have such very very different experiences.

 

[CleverNickName]

Yes, a fighter forcing his target back, against its will, is truly the height of gonzo, comic-book combat.

I'm pretty sure you are trying to use sarcasm here, but since I don't play 4th Edition and I know that you do, I have to ask: why do you bring this up? We have been using the Bull Rush option in combat for twelve years now, and it has never been something that could only be done once per encounter. Is Bull Rush a per-encounter ability in 4E?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm pretty sure you are trying to use sarcasm here, but since I don't play 4th Edition and I know that you do, I have to ask: why do you bring this up? We have been using the Bull Rush option in combat for twelve years now, and it has never been something that could only be done once per encounter. Is Bull Rush a per-encounter ability in 4E?

It's a Fighter at-will choice (at level 1, no less); then there are encounter abilities and dailies that do it better.

So, in 4E, a fighter (who wishes to do so) can reliably push people around (while still doing damage to them!), and then every so often, he gets a really good result that pushes them even further.

I just fail to see how "I have a fighter that can push people around" is some whackadoodle concept.

 

[CleverNickName]

I just fail to see how "I have a fighter that can push people around" is some whackadoodle concept.

I never said it was. I don't think I mentioned pushing at all.

I was referring to the overall feel, the style of play...the style where everyone needs superpowers, self-healing, and superhuman ability scores in order to be a hero (like the heroes in a comic book.) I'm not saying it's "whackadoodle," it's just not my style.

 

[n00bdragon]

snip

Perhaps the disconnect is between people who find the action similar and people who find the result dissimilar. No doubt about it, the act of playing any particular 4e character is largely the same. Whether you play as a wizard or a barbarian the act of choosing and using your powers is nearly identical. However, the results of those powers are as different as they come.

It's like a string of Christmas lights. One person says "Look, there are green ones and red ones and blue ones!" and the next guy says "Yes, but they're all still light bulbs flashing the same pattern."

 

[BobTheNob]

Perhaps the disconnect is between people who find the action similar and people who find the result dissimilar. No doubt about it, the act of playing any particular 4e character is largely the same. Whether you play as a wizard or a barbarian the act of choosing and using your powers is nearly identical. However, the results of those powers are as different as they come.

It's like a string of Christmas lights. One person says "Look, there are green ones and red ones and blue ones!" and the next guy says "Yes, but they're all still light bulbs flashing the same pattern."

I was very determined to not be argumentative in my post, and I will try to remain so here. I thought that I very clearly stated that the lack of distinctiveness during play was what me and my group experienced. Its literally impossible to tell me that my experience was otherwise.

Yet, thats what this reponse does. You say, with no personnel qualification

However, the results of those powers are as different as they come.

Its like saying "You experienced it wrong". How is that even possible? I would accept this response if it was more like

"My own experience was that the results of those powers are as different as they come"

But not this statement you gave which i no way allows that I had a different experience to you.

It's like a string of Christmas lights. One person says "Look, there are green ones and red ones and blue ones!" and the next guy says "Yes, but they're all still light bulbs flashing the same pattern."

And this is just a poor analogy. It speaks purely of external observation and in no way encompasses experience. If I was to observe the rules, then yes, I would say that the classes were remarkably distinct. But I did actually say that in my post...by observation, they are distinct, I never said otherwise.

Its actually the dead opposite situation. When I picked up 4e, what I saw was red and green and blue lights. After having played, what they felt like was just christmas lights.

Im not a 4e basher. I wouldnt have played the game for so long if I was. In fact, I quite like the system. I am simply relating what happened to me and my group.

Sorry, You cant tell me "your experience was wrong".

 

[n00bdragon]

Sorry, You cant tell me "your experience was wrong".

Which is ironic because I didn't. You just beat up a wonderful straw man.

 

[BobTheNob]

Which is ironic because I didn't. You just beat up a wonderful straw man.

Edit. Changing my post. Im reacting emotionally, and one shouldnt do that on forums

With all due respect I disagree. I ask you to read-read both of my posts and understand that the only thing I am trying to state is that, whilst there is intention and observation, these are different to actual experience, and my experience with 4e powers and classes was that ultimately they felt same same.

Thats all

 

[Herschel]

I'm pretty sure you are trying to use sarcasm here, but since I don't play 4th Edition and I know that you do, I have to ask: why do you bring this up? We have been using the Bull Rush option in combat for twelve years now, and it has never been something that could only be done once per encounter. Is Bull Rush a per-encounter ability in 4E?

You can Bull Rush all day long in 4E also (it's just a Strength vs. Fortitude roll) but there's also moves/powers that let us do things along with said Bull Rush.