Why the fear and hatred of Disjunction?

[Kilroy]

Disjunction would be a balanced spell if it worked as Dispel Magic with a 100% success rate and did not affect items. Unfortunantly, it does affect items, and with the commodification of magic in d20 and the expectations that places on the power of high level challenges, it has a wide variety of effects that are detrimental to game play. In the group of people I play with and around, I've heard of it being used twice. The first time, it was as a CR9 trap in a game of about that level, on a day the rogue wasn't there, and the campaign ended as a result. The second time, with a different group, it was cast on a high level party, debuffing the divine casters and the monk but destroying every magic item on the barbarian, causing that player to leave the game in frustration.

I think it's the worst spell in 3.5, entirely because of the rather sad direct convertability between magic, money and power and the regretable crippling dependency on 'stuff' rather than 'self' that high level melee characters face. Particularly in published modules with no way to regain the lost wealth, a melee character that is Disjoined has no way to recover that lost power, which is nearly the entirity of their character ability, and the party is generally better off if that player leaves the game or starts a new character.

It is designed to inflict crippling, irreperable damage (AFAIK, Wish can not reenchant items any better than it can create them in the first place) on a party, and it has the same effect on a fighter as something that would erase wizard spell slots, make gods forsake their clerics or make rogues forget their skills.

 

[Quartz]

A 20th level Cleric without PrCs might have a Will save in the range of about +27. With a few PrCs, +30.

MD for a Wizard with a 30 Int has a DC of 29. The Cleric will often save 95% of the time.

A 20th level Fighter with or without PrCs (since most PrCs do not add to Will saves) might have a Will save of about +12 to +15. He can easily lose 60% to 80% of his items.

Now that's a reasonable issue, on the face of it, but I don't believe it stands up to scrutiny. The fighter-types can take feats (e.g. Iron Will, Force of Personality) or dips in other classes (e.g. Monk, Knight - a 2 level dip in Knight gives you +3 Will and no loss to BAB) to boost their Will saves. A Ftr 16 / Kt 2 / Mk 2 has a base Will save of +11 and a BAB of +19

If Disjunction is cast from an item, then it gets cast as INT 19, Level 17, for a DC of 23. Not nearly so bad. Consider a Ftr 6 / Kt 2. His base Will save is +5, he'll have a couple of +3 items and buffs to add to his save for a total save of +11, or more. So he can expect to lose half his gear, probably less. That's without feats or bonus from stats. Consider a Paladin 6 / Kt 2 with Cha 16. His base Will save is +8. Again, add in items and buffs - particularly Eagle's Splendour - and his will save is going to be +16 or more. Again, without feats or bonus from stats. So he can expect to lose a quarter or less of his items. Which, of course, will be made good once they've plundered the BBEG's treasury.

 

[Ciaran]

Now that's a reasonable issue, on the face of it, but I don't believe it stands up to scrutiny. The fighter-types can take feats (e.g. Iron Will, Force of Personality) or dips in other classes (e.g. Monk, Knight - a 2 level dip in Knight gives you +3 Will and no loss to BAB) to boost their Will saves. A Ftr 16 / Kt 2 / Mk 2 has a base Will save of +11 and a BAB of +19

So, fighter-types should completely redesign their builds solely to defend against a single spell? That's a classic sign of brokenness.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

So, fighter-types should completely redesign their builds solely to defend against a single spell? That's a classic sign of brokenness.

No, they should also redesign for better will saves because it sucks to be dominated to slash the poor little wizard at your side in tiny pieces with that +5 greatsword.

Fighters have tons of feats, spending one or two to improve a saving throw that becomes more deadly as you advance in levels should be no big deal...

Cheers,

 

[Quartz]

So, fighter-types should completely redesign their builds solely to defend against a single spell? That's a classic sign of brokenness.

No, I'm pointing out that it's easy for a character to boost their saves. You could apply the same for a rogue and Fort saves, for instance. And there are plenty of spells that give Will saves which need to be guarded against.

 

[Grenouillebleue]

Wait, did I follow you correctly? A "mellow" DM can't have intricate politics? Or, are you just adding that in there?

Intricate politics as in "a wrong word at the wrong time might bring you to the gallows" cannot be done if your DM isn't prepared to go through it.

A perfect example of this (though not P&P) is the trial you face in NWN2. There's no way you can lose it, which makes all your answers meaningless. When people cheer you at the end and say you're not guilty, well... there's no sense of achievement there.

 

[Montague68]

Story focused games tend to define the characters by what they are moreso then the equipment they have. So, sure the characters will be under equiped for a while but the players don't feel that their fighter is 30% of a man now. The players will then enjoy the challenge as the story takes a twist and they have to figure out what to do next.

In said "story focused game" have the players make opposed diplomacy rolls with the BBEG. For every failed roll the player loses his henchman, lover/spouse, stronghold, mentor, noble rank, land, citizenship, etc. permanently. That's the equivalent effect of Disjunction in a more item-based game. Would those players in that story-focused game just roll with the punches and accept a year or more of hard work in that campaign wiped out with one die roll? I doubt it. But yet more item-concerned players should just suck it up and deal with it because it's a challenge.

Trying to roleplay when I'm hitting you in the face with a brick is a challenge but then that's not very fun either is it?

 

[Grenouillebleue]

accept a year or more of hard work in that campaign wiped out with one die roll?

That's the second time I see this word on this thread, so I had to butt in.

Hard work ?
I really feel for you.

In a MMORPG, you could use this argument since you have to invest some time doing stuff you don't especially like (farming, crafting...) to compete.

But in a Pen 'n Paper RPG, the goal is to have fun. So you shouldn't have any 'hard work' destroyed.

 

[Particle_Man]

One can have fun through the produced character (a character lovingly and carefully built up over time) as well as the process (the hours of playing the game). the Disjunction spell does not retroactively ruin the fun of the process, but can ruin the present and possibly future fun of playing the produced character. Unless you play a series of one-shot adventures with new pregenerated characters every single time.

A little like spending time painting the mona lisa, and then having someone stab the painting with a knife. Yet there is a point to the process of creating the work of art, but you would also want to have the product undamaged.

 

[Crothian]

Would those players in that story-focused game just roll with the punches and accept a year or more of hard work in that campaign wiped out with one die roll? I doubt it.

It's not being wiped out. The spell is not going back in time and taking away all the fun we had for the past year. The spell is not destroying plots or sessions, it's just taking out some equipment. Equipment can be replaced. Go down to the local 7-11 magic store and buy more. Take a side adventure into the dungeon of magical treasure that exists in all campaign worlds.

I think this is more that there are players that cannot accept bad things happening to their character. And that's fine.