Why the fear and hatred of Disjunction?

[Infiniti2000]

As a wizard, teleport away. Re-Memorize spells, after casting the int booster on yourself. Its a level 2 spell.

No. The int booster spell (fox's cunning) will not help you regain those spells you lost for the higher stat: "Wizards (and other spellcasters who rely on Intelligence) affected by this spell do not gain any additional bonus spells for the increased Intelligence..."

Also, all my wizards have 19+ int by level 12. Call me wacky.

Not wacky, just the standard power gaming build of an Int-based spell caster.

 

[Seeten]

Grappling dragons, demons, giants, and the majority of other high CR opponents is possible for grapple monkies only, otherwise, its a waste of an action.

You know what though? Dismissal, magic circle, wail of the banshee, shapechange, finger of death, disintegrate all continue to work.

Why are we defending a spell that wrecks half the party and leaves the other half basically untouched? Why as a DM would you want to highlight further how much better cleric, druid and wizard are than fighter and rogue? At a certain point, its just mean.

 

[Quartz]

Basically, at high levels, non spell casters ARE their equipment. They have very little personal power. Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerors have PERSONAL power. Fighters have gear. A fighter has a 20 BAB, but thats not enough against real CR 20 challenges. You need much more than 20, hence why monks have so much trouble hitting. Disjunction is unfair to non-spellcasters, as it strips their base of power.

I disagree. Those spellcasters aren't going to last long without the combat types. So they buff them. And a 20th level fighter will have an adjusted AB of well over 20 due to feats and stats. Str 26 (+5 from levels, +5 Inherent) +10, Weapon Focus, Weapon Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus, etc. Call it +35 to +40. And that's while they're being re-buffed. And don't forget that a fighter can expect - in the mathematical sense - to only lose some of his gear. And if his sword +5 stops working then either he gets the mage to cast Greater Magic Weapon or he pulls out his other sword. A good reason for anti-magic scabbards. A clever fighter might even expect to be subject to Disjunction and start by wielding a lesser blade.

 

[Crothian]

Not wacky, just the standard power gaming build of an Int-based spell caster.

I don't think a wizard that wants to be able to cast 9th level spells is a power gamer. Having a 17 or 18 int at first level is also not being a power gamer IMO.

 

[AuraSeer]

I think you're missing the player habituation. If your players are habituated to a thing then they need a reality check.

Wtf? That statement is worse than nonsense; I find it a bit offensive. You're supposed to be playing a game, not practicing amateur psychology on your friends.

If you really see D&D as an excuse to try and condition your players, as if they were experimental rats in a psych lab, there is something seriously wrong with the situation.

 

[Thurbane]

Why do so many seem to be afraid of or against the spell Mage's Disjunction? So it destroys the PCs buffs and equipment; so what? They're still alive and unharmed (of course, a RBDM might put them in a hostile environment ). And they can cast more spells. And they can get or create more items. At lower levels, it's a real BBEG spell. A one-shot item of Mage's Disjunction should be well within the reach of a 10th level or so BBEG. After all, how's he going to keep his lieutenants in check?

"See here the Talisman of Ak-Zanar. It had the ability to destroy all magic but that of its wielder. Do you really want to face me?" (Unsaid: "It only works once, and then departs to be found by someone else.")

Yes, chaps, your 7th level PCs might be facing a Disjunction.

Equally, it's a fine special pupose power for a mage-slaying weapon.

And it provides a real use for the Enchanted Weapon / Greater Enchanted Weapon / Magic Vestment / etc buffing spells: "Hey Gandalf, he's de-magicked my sword: do something!" Buffing after, rather than before. If the item is particularly special, then PCs can use a Wish to recover it if of sufficient level, or quest for one if not.

From the play POV it also provides the ideal way of getting rid of old, unused, or troublesome items and introducing new ones. It also stops PC depending upon certain items, since they might not have them much longer. And if PCs are of a mind to create their own replacement items, then you have plot hooks galore.

How say you?

It's the same as the hatred for Rust Monsters - 3E has promoted too much dependance on gear and loot, IMHO...

 

[KarinsDad]

Why are we defending a spell that wrecks half the party and leaves the other half basically untouched? Why as a DM would you want to highlight further how much better cleric, druid and wizard are than fighter and rogue? At a certain point, its just mean.

I agree. A DM who uses this spell is just being a total sadistic ass, just like the guy who designed the spell in the first place.

Even Wish is not this powerful (Wish is more versatile, but not this powerful). At worse, Disjunction should be a very high level Epic spell. At best, it should not exist in the game system. The spell is merely designed to hack off players.

Just because a given spell concept can be thought of does not mean that it should exist in the game system.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think I would retire or, if that is not an option, "suicide" my fighter if he got Disjunctioned. It would be too emotionally painful to play a gimped fighter when I could simply reroll a new character (perhaps a few levels lower), with his own magical gear.

As a DM, I would never use it.

 

[Bad Paper]

Wtf? That statement is worse than nonsense; I find it a bit offensive. You're supposed to be playing a game, not practicing amateur psychology on your friends.

If you really see D&D as an excuse to try and condition your players, as if they were experimental rats in a psych lab, there is something seriously wrong with the situation.

Clearly you're not a RBDM. That's OK; it's something of an exclusive club.

Sunder, rust monster, destrachan, disenchanter, disjunction, steel predator...these things are the DM's friends!

And, by the way, if anyone wants to weigh in further on my disjunction thread, feel free.

 

[Victim]

Why do so many seem to be afraid of or against the spell Mage's Disjunction? So it destroys the PCs buffs and equipment; so what? They're still alive and unharmed (of course, a RBDM might put them in a hostile environment ). And they can cast more spells. And they can get or create more items. At lower levels, it's a real BBEG spell. A one-shot item of Mage's Disjunction should be well within the reach of a 10th level or so BBEG. After all, how's he going to keep his lieutenants in check?

Disjunction is so hated because of its effect on high level combat. Destroying buffs and equipment is killing PCs in that case (actually, item destruction is probably worse than death - a true res might be worth about 30k, but even a strong Willed 20th level character will likely be losing more). High level monsters have stats such that powerful items and buffs are required to stand a chance (if they didn't, the monsters would be easy meat for buffed characters) so the loss of buffs is crippling. Also, baddies with a modicum of tactical ability will be following up the disjunction with attacks designed to exploit the stripped down defenses of its victims.

Disjucntion's magic item destruction is uncontrolled. If you want to take out older items (or any other specific subset), tough break. Everything depends on how people roll on the saves so the overall loss in wealth and power is not likely to be evenly distributed. So it's an awful way to control treasure. Unless you think taking out a few potions from one character but disenchanting another character's best stuff is a good way to do things.

At level 10 or 7, it would be an issue, but not as much of one. Moreover, a 10th level BBEG could likely get a lot more bang for buck with a different 9th level spell. Having low (in relative terms) level guys with 9th level spells is probably the bigger issue in that case. High power 1 shot items are a great way to kill BBEGs you know.