Why the fear and hatred of Disjunction?

[Edena_of_Neith]

I have no sympathy for high level parties (or even mid level parties) that get a Mordenkainen's Disjunction / Mage's Disjunction thrown at them. The only regret I have is that items are now allowed a saving throw: in the old version, NO save and NO appeal.

If the party is going to DELIBERATELY provoke the anger of an archmage, what should they expect?
If the party is going to bring all their magical items along, what should they expect? (in the old days, a simple Fireball could Demagick the party.)
If the party is going to make no preparations for such a dark day, what should they expect?

Most liches are stay at home types. If you don't bother them, they won't bother you. If you *insist* on bothering them, then ... well ... they get mad.
Most archmages are not concerned with adventurers (they have other archmages to contend with, plus insundry assorted plotting, magical item creation, and other things.) But if a party must crash an archmage's stronghold, then ... well ... a certain fate is decreed.

Back in my day, if all you got nailed with was Mordenkainen's Disjunction, you were LUCKY. In 3.0, you'd be even MORE LUCKY as the wizard is more powerful than in 2E.
Would you prefer, perhaps, the old Time Stop? (TPK, no appeal, game over.)
Would you prefer, perhaps, Gate? (Demogorgon shows up, TPK ensues.)
Would you prefer, perhaps, Internal Fires (burnt to a cinder along with all items, no save.)
Or how about the old Bigby's Crushing Hand (squashed to a pulp, no save), Blade in the Soul (puppet of enemy wizard or death, your choice, no save), Prismatic Sword (take a wild guess!), Algarth's Embattlement (4 disintegrates hurled simultaneously at the whole party), or how about the old Shapechange (enemy mage turns into tarrasque, eats party) or Prismatic Sphere (enemy mage is invincible) or the old Power Word Kill (insta-kill, no save, no resurrection)?

Nay. If all it is, is Mage's Disjunction (even if all your items are toast because the DM uses the old version of the spell) you can at least use Wishes to regain those lost items.
If it's a TPK, there isn't terribly much you can do.

Back in my day, here were some of the things you could do to avoid Mordenkainen's Disjunction / Mage's Disjunction:

Have a Periap of Proof Against Detection and Location
Use other defenses against magical detection
Use decoys (especially high level ones or powerful monsters, inadvertently drawn into your mess)
Antimagic Shell and Antimagic Zone.
Divination (it might work, since the lich is busy and not expecting anyone to be so insane as to bother him: you might locate him and effect a surprise attack.)
Some of the clerical spells out of the old 2nd Edition Tome of Magic (one will turn the Mordenkainen's Disjunction right back at the casting wizard. Another makes you immune to any spells cast in your vicinity: you are not in the same plane of existence, even though you can step out into it at any time.)
Wish and Limited Wish.
Spell Turning.
Winning Initiative (Yes, that Improved Initiative Feat goes a long ways here!!!)

If all that fails, running sometimes works. Better yet, getting down on your knees and begging for mercy is an option (archmages are proud and arrogant types, and tend to show 'mercy' to boost their own egos.)

If you are just going to waltz up to an archmage, confront him at 20 paces (Western gunfight style), and have at it, expect to be royally roughed over.

Finally, REMEMBER that most archmages have Clones or even Stasis Clones available (not to mention clerical friends with Resurrection), so after you kill the wizard ... he returns, finds out who killed him, and then you have a much bigger problem than Mage's Disjunction to deal with (such as, he intends to capture your soul and put it into a Flask of Fiery Burning, and leave it there for the next couple of millennia. You DO have that Periap of Proof Against Detection and Location, right? ...)

 

[NilesB]

It's the same as the hatred for Rust Monsters - 3E has promoted too much dependance on gear and loot, IMHO...

As opposed to previous editions where your character sheet was basicly an equipment list and a hit point tally?

The wealth by level table increases the importance of levels, not gear.

 

[Bad Paper]

I like Mordy's Disjunction because it feels a little lopsided in power. It invokes that same terror-in-the-pit-of-your-stomach that the similarly lopsided real-world nuclear bomb does. I have always felt that it's fabulous that this game's nuke is a friggin abjuration! How cool is that?

Disclosure: I have never used, nor seen used, this spell. I can't really claim to know its practical effect on the game. The campaign I run is rather lassez-faire (bare minimum of house rules, lots of as-written-but-broken stuff), so I hope my party is getting the hint when I keep reminding the wizard to back up his Boccob's blessed book. They're 16th level now, so, heh heh, yyyeeaahhhh

 

[kasin]

So, here's a question. Let's say I house ruled the spell in my game to suppress magic items for (say) one round per level, normal will save negates. What's the downside?

The biggest, I think, is that every fight will start with the PCs (or the NPCs) leading with this spell, and the will saves that go with it, as well as the constant rejiggering of stats as items stop working.

That's just differently bad.

I do this IMC. Artifacts may be temporarily suppressed, at the cost of losing spellcasting powers for a period. Given most epic level PC parties IMC have an artifact, the risk of losing all your powers, even for a limited time, is not to be sneezed at.

 

[KarinsDad]

It is a long way from rolling a few dice ahead of time to predetermining the whole session for everyone. Rolling dice ahead of time changes nothing, except saving some time. (Unless you don't trust the DM and think he'll cheat. And if that's the case you have bigger issues). The other is total lack of player free will.

I think players that use a lot of buffs and lots of magical equipment need to be preapred for losing it assuming the game has ways to lose it. If a player slows down the game for an hour becasue he was not prepared then I'd treat it the same way for a player that has his spell list not prepared. I move ahead without him. Having players prepared is not out of the question in my mind. But again, different people have different play styles and that's cool.

Do you know how robotic that sounds?

This is a game. Games are meant to be fun.

If the DM is going to throw MD at the players, some if not most players enjoy rolling their own save dice. If that slows up the game for the DM, then the DM should not be stupid enough to throw MD at the players in the first place.


This is like a game where the DM once killed my PC because I was roleplaying in character and attacked a guard of a mercenary unit. It was not only totally in character, but practically forced due to the background of my PC and the scenario the DM threw at us. So, the DM stated that a bunch of mercenaries came out of the barracks, local shops and taverns, etc. and the PCs who ran away got away, the PC who stood with me got knocked unconcious, and my PC was killed. No dice rolls. No combat (and my PC had a few ways in which to magically flee if combat became too overwhelming). When asked why he did not play the combat out considering it involved a PC death, the DM stated that it was "not worth his time". So, I said the game was not worth my time and walked out the door.


This is similar to pre-rolling saves for the players. Such a game is not fun and not worth my time. If the DM is going to use MD, he should be prepared for the game slow up. A DM should never be rolling a saving throw for a player. It is not his perogative, at least not in the type of game I enjoy.

 

[Crothian]

This is a game. Games are meant to be fun.

I think you are stuck on this. Games are meant to be fun, but not everyone has fun with the game in the same way.

The example you give is much different and of a bad DM. People in this thread say the time to make the saves is a problem so rolling them ahead of time is a solution to that. The dice are still rolled, heck the players them selves can roll the dice if that makes them happy.

You don't like it, that's fine. Some people do. Is that wrong of them to enjoy it?

 

[KarinsDad]

I think you are stuck on this. Games are meant to be fun, but not everyone has fun with the game in the same way.

The example you give is much different and of a bad DM. People in this thread say the time to make the saves is a problem so rolling them ahead of time is a solution to that. The dice are still rolled, heck the players them selves can roll the dice if that makes them happy.

You don't like it, that's fine. Some people do. Is that wrong of them to enjoy it?

It can be claimed that anything is fun. That does not make it true for most people. I suspect that there are very few people who want to roll saves for all of their PC's items, regardless of who rolls them.

 

[KarinsDad]

Back in my day, here were some of the things you could do to avoid Mordenkainen's Disjunction / Mage's Disjunction:

Have a Periap of Proof Against Detection and Location
Use other defenses against magical detection
Use decoys (especially high level ones or powerful monsters, inadvertently drawn into your mess)
Antimagic Shell and Antimagic Zone.
Divination (it might work, since the lich is busy and not expecting anyone to be so insane as to bother him: you might locate him and effect a surprise attack.)
Some of the clerical spells out of the old 2nd Edition Tome of Magic (one will turn the Mordenkainen's Disjunction right back at the casting wizard. Another makes you immune to any spells cast in your vicinity: you are not in the same plane of existence, even though you can step out into it at any time.)
Wish and Limited Wish.
Spell Turning.
Winning Initiative (Yes, that Improved Initiative Feat goes a long ways here!!!)

If all that fails, running sometimes works. Better yet, getting down on your knees and begging for mercy is an option (archmages are proud and arrogant types, and tend to show 'mercy' to boost their own egos.)

This is totally silly.

How exactly is a Fighter supposed to do most of these?

By your own admission, Archmages are terrible to behold. If so, how the heck is a party supposed to even know that one is going to attack them? Most divination spells are pretty vague. Sure, the PCs might divine that doom is around the corner, but they would have to be reading the DM's notes to find out that the exact doom is MD from an Archmage. By the time they find out, they've already lost their items. Like I said, silly.

Preparation is all nice and well, and is in fact a requirement of high level play, but that does not make this spell balanced in any way. It is extremely difficult for certain classes to avoid it once it is cast.

 

[Crothian]

It can be claimed that anything is fun. That does not make it true for most people. I suspect that there are very few people who want to roll saves for all of their PC's items, regardless of who rolls them.

Well, if you can prove that most (over 50%) of all D&D gamers feel that way then go ahead and do so. Otherwise, I think you have no more idea on that then I do and might want to admit that.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, if you can prove that most (over 50%) of all D&D gamers feel that way then go ahead and do so. Otherwise, I think you have no more idea on that then I do and might want to admit that.

I do not need to prove it. Having gamed for almost 30 years, I know that getting screwed by the DM is not fun for most players.