Why the fear and hatred of Disjunction?

[Edena_of_Neith]

This is totally silly.

How exactly is a Fighter supposed to do most of these?

By your own admission, Archmages are terrible to behold. If so, how the heck is a party supposed to even know that one is going to attack them? Most divination spells are pretty vague. Sure, the PCs might divine that doom is around the corner, but they would have to be reading the DM's notes to find out that the exact doom is MD from an Archmage. By the time they find out, they've already lost their items. Like I said, silly.

Preparation is all nice and well, and is in fact a requirement of high level play, but that does not make this spell balanced in any way. It is extremely difficult for certain classes to avoid it once it is cast.

Unfortunately, a high level fighter is out of his league against an archmage. This imbalance was created with the D&D game back in 1974, and has remained so ever since despite every attempt to change it. I personally do not see that it is possible to right the inequality, short of changing the game itself into something else (which they seem to be doing ...)
That leaves only Second Best Options for the Fighter.

- He can obtain magical items to aid in his fight against the archmage: magic against magic.
- He can obtain anti-magical items in an effort to shield himself from Mordenkainen's Disjunction, other Autokill spells, and other powerful spells.
- He can work with a party that includes a high level wizard and/or a high level cleric, and fight to protect those PCs so that *they* can defeat the archmage (and resurrect him, if needed.)
- He can multiclass (particularly now, in 3E), then go into PrCs that enable him to use magical spells or magical type abilities himself.
- He can also use decoys. He can goad monsters into attacking the wizard's lair, or pay NPCs into attacking it (NPCs who do not know what they are in for, of course.) Or he could start rumors that attracted the unfavorable attention of the authorities on the archmage (they are afraid of such powerful wizards too, obviously.)
- He can do other things. Archmages are still only mortal, and make mistakes (especially since they are typically arrogant.)

-

Archmages should not be random encounters that one just happens to 'run into', in my opinion. As you have said, that seems silly.

Take Acererak. He stays in his vault. Everyone knows he's there. A lot of people insist on trying to kill him. A lot of people ... are now dead.
Larloch's necropolis is a known location. Nobody tries to go there. The LAST time adventurers bothered Larloch, the city they came from was torched and half the population exterminated.
If the party runs into Mordenkainen in a tavern, it is doubtful he is looking for a fight. He'll probably leave if bothered without throwing a single spell at the party ... and the Greyhawk City Guard will then run the PCs out of town on a rail.
Gromph the Archmage of Menzoberranzan, is probably in Menzoberranzan. If he is outside it, it is for one heck of a good reason and he is probably looking to avoid a fight (and thus the notice of the Surface World.) If the party goes to Menzoberranzan, they will encounter fun aplenty and to spare long before they ever encounter Gromph.
If the party insists on storming Blackstaff Tower, they will run into Khelben and Laeral. They should not expect anything less. Fortunately, Laeral is kindly and merciful. Unfortunately, Khelben is neither.
Halaster almost never directly molests adventurers in Undermountain. Adventurers never know he is there. Sometimes, Halaster sets monsters on the adventurers, watches the results, and is highly amused (win or lose.) Sometimes, Halaster just watches the adventurers. Usually, Halaster doesn't even bother watching.
Raistlin is busy in his Tower of High Sorcery. To get to him, you must first pass through Shoikan Grove. (This rule applies even to invited guests!) If you get through that, he will actually notice your arrival, and hopefully you will have a good explanation for this intrusion?

You just might run into Manshoon accidentally. Of course, there are FIFTY Manshoons running around all at once (see The Manshoon Wars) so this situation is the exception (and everyone is terrified out of their wits as chaos and pandemonium reigns across the Realms.)
In a case like this, you might want to keep a low profile until the uproar has died down ...

Archmage encounters are unique and epic in nature. The party should invariably know they are dealing with an archmage (or archmagistress, to use the FR term for female archmages) since this IS a unique and epic situation. Fortunately for the party, the reverse is not necessarily true as the party is not necessarily so famous or infamous.
RANDOM archmage encounters should be freakishly rare. And of those freakishly rare encounters, it should be a freak exception that the archmage attacks the party out of the blue. And in those cases, there should be a way out for the party and/or ways for them to recover from their freak misfortune.

(a bit tongue in cheek)

I have a different conception of 9th level spells than yourself, taken from the olden days.
I consider 9th level spells to be in the Realm of Autokill. That is to say, if it's an Autokill spell (like the old Internal Fires spell, much less the old Time Stop) it's probably 9th level.
9th level spells and balance are contradicting terms. In my opinion, no game exists where both exist. 9th level spells are beasts as terrible as the tarrasque, as unstoppable as Raistlin, as unreasonable as the Simbul, and as gamebreaking as the Hand of Vecna. They put the Arch into Archmage/Archmagistress.
So, if your PC insists on fighting a monster or NPC with 9th level spells, you know exactly who is to blame when what is left of your PC can be scouped into a thimble.

Edena_of_Neith

EDIT: No archmage is going to wait in a dungeon room for the party to come walking around the corner. No self respecting archmage would ever consent to be the DM's monster-in-room 35!

 

[Quartz]

If not, then the DM has to do this for every PC (and NPC) who was in the radius of the Disjunction. That means that the DM has to be aware of every property of every magic item that got disjoined. Plus if he is keeping it secret, he has to have all of this information available without giving hints to his players as to which items got toasted. So, he has to review every single item that got disjoined and know when to decrease damage, to hits, saves, etc.

I fail to see how this is a problem. When I was a GM, I had copies of PCs' character sheets, assorted index cards, notes of spell durations etc. Nicely organised. Made item saving throws in 2nd ed very easy.

 

[NilesB]

Unfortunately, a high level fighter is out of his league against an archmage. This imbalance was created with the D&D game back in 1974, and has remained so ever since despite every attempt to change it. I personally do not see that it is possible to right the inequality, short of changing the game itself into something else

Well, a good way to start would be eliminating disjunction.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have a different conception of 9th level spells than yourself, taken from the olden days.
I consider 9th level spells to be in the Realm of Autokill. That is to say, if it's an Autokill spell (like the old Internal Fires spell, much less the old Time Stop) it's probably 9th level.
9th level spells and balance are contradicting terms. In my opinion, no game exists where both exist. 9th level spells are beasts as terrible as the tarrasque, as unstoppable as Raistlin, as unreasonable as the Simbul, and as gamebreaking as the Hand of Vecna. They put the Arch into Archmage/Archmagistress.
So, if your PC insists on fighting a monster or NPC with 9th level spells, you know exactly who is to blame when what is left of your PC can be scouped into a thimble.

Actually, I agree with everything you said except this. In 3.5, 9th level spells are not as potent as they were in 1E/2E as a general rule. WotC toned down some of the 9th level spells for 3E and again for 3.5.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well, a good way to start would be eliminating disjunction.

Yes, you can do that, and it will make for a more balanced game.
But it will take something out of the game, too. Nothing comes without a price. Is it worth that price? (Up to you, I guess, to decide that.)

 

[KarinsDad]

I fail to see how this is a problem. When I was a GM, I had copies of PCs' character sheets, assorted index cards, notes of spell durations etc. Nicely organised. Made item saving throws in 2nd ed very easy.

It is just a lot more work for a DM.

If MD is being thrown around, the DM is already handling extremely high level NPCs.

Handling modifications of high level PC character sheets as well (it is not just items that are disjoined, but spells as well) would be an additional burden. The DM handling all of this has to by definition slow down a game.

Now, the DM could get away with not having to handle the spells if the PCs were aware that MD got cast (and know its effects). Otherwise, it would appear to be not much different than a Greater Dispel Magic in the eyes of the PCs and the DM would have to handle all of it. But, the DM would still have to handle the items if he is keeping secret which items are destroyed.

Additionally, it is possible that the PCs would cast more spells in future rounds after the MD and the DM would have to handle those as well.

It's one thing to add bonuses and penalties to NPC abilities as combat proceeds for a DM. It's a different thing for the DM to do that for the NPCs and the PCs as well. PCs tend to be a lot more complex than most NPCs (except for the BBEG and possibly a few of his most powerful henchmen).


Even if the DM were super organized and kept track of all of the PC spells cast before and after MD was cast and he rolled ahead of time to see which PC items got destroyed (he could roll this for all PCs and then just handle the PCs who were actually in the area of effect) and he had modified PC character sheets made up ahead of time, it would still slow down the game for him to keep track of PC abilities (and of course, some NPCs might get caught in the radius as well).

This spell is a total pain in the butt to run in combat.

Although I too always had copies of PC character sheets when DMing that I could bring out if necessary in a game, that's a lot of paper to be flipping through every round while running a combat.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Is it worth that price? (Up to you, I guess, to decide that.)

I'd get this hangnail removed, but then I wouldn't have this hangnail anymore!

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, you can do that, and it will make for a more balanced game.
But it will take something out of the game, too. Nothing comes without a price. Is it worth that price? (Up to you, I guess, to decide that.)

Why?

If the original designer had never thought of the spell, it would not be in the PHB and we would not be having this discussion.

Taking MD out of the game is white noise with respect to the game "losing something important".

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

In the case of Mage's Disjunction (Mordenkainen's Disjunction) I'd have to say that this particular spell (like the Wish spell) is a whole can of worms all in itself.
Taking *this* spell out of the game changes things, if your world has archmages running around in it.

Just my personal opinion.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Haven't seen this mentioned so far (Unless I missed it) but I hate the spell because it can ruin a character concept. For instance a while back I built a "Hulking Herder" character, a battlefield-control fighter with a dozen bags of tricks and a few houseruled feats for using them (Like a quickdraw-analogue for drawing out animals). If that character was disjunctioned and all his bags lost how long would it take to get them back using random treasure drops? Or If for some reason I make a two-bladed sword fighter how hard will it be to find another +3/+3 sentient two bladed sword with shocking on one end and flaming on the other? The GM might well replace the lost equipment with equal value but it probably just won't be the same. Look at Roy Greenhilt and his extreme quests to get back his favorite sword, because it was a major part of his character concept.