Why the fear and hatred of Disjunction?

[Artoomis]

...Artifacts should be the basis of legendary quests, not just common everyday treasure in a dungeon crawl. Look at the 2E Rod of Seven Parts adventure. One artifact, an entire major adventure for high level PCs to acquire it....

Yep that was great. But I maintain that MINOR artifacts are not all that rare at all - not even necessariuly unique.

MAJOR artifacts are another matter. They seem to be what most folks think of as "artifacts."

 

[Infiniti2000]

First, I wouldn't have an NPC Wizard do this if his chance to fail the Will save was not 5%. There are many boost spells that can get his Will save up.

Not to mention just items. A 15th level wizard/5th level archmage has a base of +13. Give him a base wisdom of 12 with a +6 bonus item and +4 inherent bonus (+6 total) and a +5 COP and he already makes a DC 25 on anything but a 1. This is easily higher with other items, spells, higher stat, feats, etc. If you're basing your entire career on something like this, it's only logical to assume maximum protection.

Second, I would have him cast it as a 17th level caster instead of 20th since it has no spell resistance and hence, there is no reason (except possibly range) to cast it at the higher caster level.

Good point.

 

[Quartz]

Does Epic equal Minor Artifact?

 

[Elemental]

So, there should be no chance that the PCs ever fail? Failure is a pretty easy concept to understand and who says that has to be the end of the campaign. BBEG wins, but the PCs are not dead. They are in a tougher position but the campaign can go on.

Unless the world ended, which tends to occur in quite a few high level plots. In any case, I don't hold that the campaign should require a big detour to reequip because of one spell.

And once more: no defence short of doing what an earlier poster suggested and setting up your character several levels in advance to protect against a single spell. So after you've spent time regaining your gear, you encounter the bad guy again, who yawns and casts another Disjunction, triggering another lewt run.

Just like fantasy heroes of legend.

I like how you insult people who disagree with you claiming there's is wildly exagerated. If you want to go house rule the spell, that's another forum.

The "wildly" part was hyperbolic, I admit. I'll assume you were honestly offended, instead of dismissing an argument because of "rudeness".

As for the house rules comment--let's be honest, if you have every NPC carrying an artifact specifically to make Disjunction inadvisable or the like, that's just as much a house rule as changing the text of the spell.

 

[Crothian]

And once more: no defence short of doing what an earlier poster suggested and setting up your character several levels in advance to protect against a single spell. So after you've spent time regaining your gear, you encounter the bad guy again, who yawns and casts another Disjunction, triggering another lewt run.

The spell does not automatically destroy all items. The defense is a good will save, something that is very important to people in high level games or their character gets held or charmed all the time. And if you know the bad guy is going to do this, one prepares for it. There are many options open to a high level group if they know the tactics of their enemy.

As for the house rules comment--let's be honest, if you have every NPC carrying an artifact specifically to make Disjunction inadvisable or the like, that's just as much a house rule as changing the text of the spell.

Not really, there are no rules that says who can and can not carry around artifacts. It is a campaign thing, not a rules thing. And I'm not sure whty the artifact on ever NPC is direct to me, I never made that point.

 

[Elemental]

Ever hear the expression: "Sometimes the dragon wins?" The game is less fun if some great peril is not faced, and sometimes the PCs lose. They may even lose and not save the world. So be it. Not everything should be pre-ordained to a PC victory. TPKs happen.

I agree completely.

But if a creature was released with an "I Win" ability (instantly kill all PC's, unlimited range, no LoS needed, no save, no SR), then I'd houserule it. Throwing that at the PC's wouldn't be a 'challenge', it'd just be mean.

That's an exaggeration, but MDJ is pretty much in the same category unless the whole campaign is designed around it.

This one is NOT broken

It's fine to not use it in your campaign, or to replace it with a toned-down version that gets used more often. These are certainly valid DM choices. In fact, with an atypical campaign that has very, very few artifacts, even minor ones, the risk factor for casting MD goes way down and the spell becomes a bit too strong due to lack of a presumed balancing factor.

The PHB is based upon a world where minor artifacts are fairly common for characters who can cast 9th-level spells (. If your world is not like that, you should adjust MD accordingly.

As explained above, the Will save for an artifact is not hard to make, and if you have a reroll-granting ability, it sinks further. Also, there are too many ways around it:

1: The caster will be exalted in the eyes of his god if he defeats these heroes and has been assured (maybe falsely, but he believes it) that he will have his power restored if it happens to go awry.

2: The wizard is actually a Dominated pawn of or fanatically loyal to the main bad guy. He would give his life for him, and the loss of his powers is a price he will pay to protect his master.

3: The caster is an egomaniac or is a brave / foolhardy enough character to take the tiny risk.

4: He finds out about artifacts the PC's have through divination spells and attempts to remove them beforehand.

5: The caster hates the PC's so much, they're willing to lose anything to destroy them.

Maybe they're not likely, but they're possible. Fufill any one of them and the RP restriction no longer applies and as you described, MDJ shoots back up to overpowered.

 

[Elemental]

And if you know the bad guy is going to do this, one prepares for it. There are many options open to a high level group if they know the tactics of their enemy.

Prepare how? The one that approaches feasible is having someone constantly readying a ranged attack to disrupt casting (assuming they can see the mage and get through his defences) or break line of effect, but pretty much nothing else will stop Disjunction, since it's a no-SR area effect.

(edit) In the end, that's pretty much my biggest beef with the spell--there's no counter or protection, short of epic magic. Virtually every other spell can be guarded against.

 

[Artoomis]

...Maybe they're not likely, but they're possible. Fufill any one of them and the RP restriction no longer applies and as you described, MDJ shoots back up to overpowered.

First, PCs must fail Will saves to lose equipment, so not all that much gets destroyed anyway (this is from DM experience - I was kind of glad that not too much got destroyed).

Second, if an NPC is fanatic to the point they are willing to so ANYTHING - MD is low on the list. There are FAR better ways to eliminate the PCs. Wild and self-sacrificing use of Wish or Miracle comes to mind right away.

Lots of things are "broken" if the NPC is essentially suicidal. There are many great ways to kill (or worse) if you do not care about saving yourself.

Really, I view MD as generally a sub-optimal choice for a ninth level spell. It very scary, and that's a good thing, but, in practice, there are almost always better choices of spells to use.

 

[Crothian]

Prepare how? The one that approaches feasible is having someone constantly readying a ranged attack to disrupt casting (assuming they can see the mage and get through his defences) or break line of effect, but pretty much nothing else will stop Disjunction, since it's a no-SR area effect.

Scry teleport in and get the jump on him
Invisible non dection scout/rogue that find him and takes him out first
Get good will saves
grapple, disrupt his casting
Hit him with the spell first
Don't get in that close of a range (only 75 ft for a 20th level caster)
Don't be grouped together
Contingencty teleports so if he casts it you all teleport out of range
Counterspells

And this is just off the top of my head. Many depend on circumstance, but with the creative things I've heard and seen high level groups do I just don't believe that when presented with the possibility of this spell that players will just give up.

It is a tough spell, there ar eno easy answers. It's 9th level and I don't think there should be an easy answer to deal with something of that power.

 

[Artoomis]

...(edit) In the end, that's pretty much my biggest beef with the spell--there's no counter or protection, short of epic magic. Virtually every other spell can be guarded against.

1. Antimagic field. Not perfect, but pretty good.
2. Make your Will saves as good as you can.
3. Kill the mage who is going to cast it before he can.
4. Find ways to lower the DC (are there any?).
5. Use Wish or Miracle to undo the recent misfortune. Then see number 3.
6. Ensure that as many items as is possible have full cover.

There are probably more...

Given all the tools available to a 17th (+) level party, getting hit by MD by surprise is inexcusable. Know your enemy.