Why the hate for anime? (Y da hat 4 anime?)

[WizarDru]

The idea that animation is only for kids in the US is a dated idea, in my book. Having a number of smallish kids in my house, I see a fair amount of cartoons, animated movies, etc. and I can promise you that there is tons of stuff that goes over the heads of kids. Luckily so, as some of it is actually inappropriate for kids, for that matter (just saw Shrek 2 last night; Pinocchio wearing a woman's thong comes to mind). One of our SpongeBob DVDs has a scene with Nosferatu, featuring some clips from the silent movie. Wanna guess how many of my kids get that joke?

"Then who's clicking the lights?....NOSFERATU!!!"

The latest wave of animation from the US is stuff that works at multiple levels. Kids can enjoy it, but it's not just for kids. A kid's movie is only so successful unless their parents can enjoy it too.

Sure...for comedy. But, and you can take your time here, how many animated shows can you name that were made for adults in particular and that weren't comedy related. The various animated Batmans, Superman and Justice League are only three of the four series I can think of, the only other example being Invasion: America (or was it Earth?).

The idea of making cartoons with elements for both adults and kids isn't new...they've been doing that since the 1930s. But with the exception of a few Ralph Bakshi films and maybe "Triplets of Belleville", there have been virtually NO serious-toned non-anime shows to speak of that weren't kids adventure shows or toy tie-ins that I can recall.

Of course, that's one reason I am waiting VERY anxiously for the Johnny Quest box set that's coming out...so I can share it with my kids. I know my son, in particular, will love it.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

I like Anime. I hope I am not like one of those weird fans you all tallk about. But do not hate them, cause they are people too.

 

[s/LaSH]

But, and you can take your time here, how many animated shows can you name that were made for adults in particular and that weren't comedy related. The various animated Batmans, Superman and Justice League are only three of the four series I can think of, the only other example being Invasion: America (or was it Earth?).

Invasion: America. (Invasion: Earth was a British miniseries, liveaction, featuring Taelon-esque refugees fleeing n-dimensional organic weirdness, and it ended... well, let's just say that anime isn't the only thing that doesn't wrap up the plot satisfactorially. (sp?))That was cool. Funny thing though, at least here in New Zealand they rated it G. Even the episode where someone gets carved down the middle and separates messily. I didn't mind, I just thought 'hey, someone's obviously concluded that cartoons are for kids'.

Which reminds me of something I heard last week. I don't know if it's true or not, but here's how it was told me: Neon Genesis Evangelion. In Japan, it was almost given a Violence rating that would have taken it off children's TV. In America, it was given a Violence rating and some sort of Disturbing Philosophy rating. In Australia, it was given a Religious Themes rating.

Interesting how cultures work, huh?

Which further reminds me, of course, that interesting is a perfectly valid reason to enjoy something. Exposure to the new. To me, there is no perfection, but striving to find the best, the new, and build something more perfect is paramount. But that's pseudoreligious philosophy so I'll leave off that.

Finally, I know Spongebob isn't a grossout toon - but it looks like one, and I find it extremely difficult to get over that prejudice. Plus I just don't have the time, so screaming and running frees up my time for other things.

 

[mmu1]

To be perfectly frank, I generally don't like anime because it's set to the wrong cultural frequency. I could possibly learn to acquire it as a taste, but when I read a book or watch a television show, do you know what my favorite bits are? Dialogue. Wordplay. Witticism. Celebration of movement and banter and cleverness. You know what the least important factor for me is? Visual effect. I could really care less about how it looks, as long as the dialogue is crisp and clean and people are having interesting character development.

I think this sums up the reason I don't enjoy most anime very well - it has more to do with cultural differences than the anime style (although that has much to answer for as well, but many people have gotten into talking about the silly anime conventions in this thread already).

I care about the story - and I find most Japanese stories to be either disjointed, nonsensical, stilted, uncomfortable or alien. (not necessarily in that order - nor am I suggesting the above adjectives apply to all Japanese storytelling equally frequently or interchangeably)

The pacing is strange (or rather, it usually drags - unless there's a huge unexplained gap of days or years) the dialogue frequently seems forced (why is the obvious stated so often, and belabored ad nausem?), the humor too often escapes me... And it's not just Anime - the same holds true for me with Japanese RPGs, as well as Japanese books. As far as the books go, this ranges from being able to appreciate the point the writer tries to make, but finding the presentation unnatural and artificial, and the characters alien (Yukio Mishima's Temple of the Golden Pavillion, for example) to picking up something like Battle Royale and finding what felt like an action anime set down on paper.

Not surprisingly, perhaps, the anime I enjoy the most is one where the subtitles or the dubbing were done in a way designed for the sensibilities of an American viewer - abandoning complete accuracy for a more natural feel, better use of idiom, and so on. For example - I love the dubbed Cowboy Bebop (American idiom, western speech patterns - at least in the DVD version), but if I try to watch it with the subtitles on, the dialogue makes me want to roll my eyes at how stilted it feels (to me).

Aside from all that (or perhaps that's still a part of what I think of as a completely different storytelling style), there's the anime that simply Makes No Bloody Sense. Sometimes it's because (like in Akira) there's a huge and unknown backstory. Other times, (like in Evangelion, for example - IMO) the author seems to get lost in his own story, and isn't able to deliver on the greater philosophical message he was trying for, or even provide a coherent ending. Or perhaps sometimes the director's just being too much of an artist to feel the need to respect his audience.
And too many people by far tend to give it a free pass a)Because it's anime and b)Because they think they "get it" (while in reality they simply let their imagination fill in the continent-sized plotholes and brush away the bad writing in one of the infinite possible ways - hardly a phenomenon unique to anime, of course... dare I mention... Star War prequels? - but probably more common there than anywhere else), and you don't.

 

[Caspian Moon Prince]

Which reminds me of something I heard last week. I don't know if it's true or not, but here's how it was told me: Neon Genesis Evangelion. In Japan, it was almost given a Violence rating that would have taken it off children's TV. In America, it was given a Violence rating and some sort of Disturbing Philosophy rating. In Australia, it was given a Religious Themes rating.

Interesting how cultures work, huh?

Yeah, I think I mentioned something along this line on one page of this thread(after four or five...it all blends).

Here are some examples from anime on TV here in the U.S. that has been edited:
-In Pokemon, which of course is a kids show here and in Japan, Team Rocket's James is a cross dresser. They cut that to shreds here.
-In Sailor Moon Zoicite is a man (nope..not making that up) and is in love with Malachite(Kunzite in japanese).
-Also in Sailor Moon...Sailor Neptune and Uranus are cousins in the american version, but lesbians in the japanese.
-The HFIL I already mentioned in Dragonball Z..and far more that could be counted.
-In Tenchi Muyo, there are scenes where the females are in the hot spring baths. They have edited swimsuits(badly done swimsuits) on all the females..except Sasami who always wears a towel.

I could keep going, but that is enough.

The differences in what is acceptable come from two places IMO:
-I believe the US has a much more tightened approach to showing anything to do with sex and especially in cases where minors(any minors) could be present. That is why millions can die in a movie and still be PG-13, but one boobie and it is instantly R.
-The other is the fact..many try and blame the problems with children on TV, Music, Movies, Games, and used to use roleplaying games instead of looking at problems at home and with bad parenting.

 

[Caspian Moon Prince]

Aside from all that (or perhaps that's still a part of what I think of as a completely different storytelling style), there's the anime that simply Makes No Bloody Sense. Sometimes it's because (like in Akira) there's a huge and unknown backstory. Other times, (like in Evangelion, for example - IMO) the author seems to get lost in his own story, and isn't able to deliver on the greater philosophical message he was trying for, or even provide a coherent ending.

With Evangelion and a lot of other anime, there is a problem with funding. Sometimes it is when a company only forks over money for so many episodes and you must wrap it up within that many...even if it means a crappy ending. Other times there is a problem with the production studio going out of business or having to cut a lot of projects (The Big O and Trigun I believe are in this category).

Evangelion was a member of the first category, but got to make two(I believe) endings in the form of movies. Well, personally I believe the creator Gainax was intentionally trying to stay incoherent with an ending. Being weird for weirdness sake.

While I do not understand all of what is going on in Evengelion. Few do, and those that do are probably lying. I have a soft spot for it because of one of my greatest roleplaying game campaigns ever was using the series. There was some sweet mindblowing stuff in those ten or so sessions.

 

[Alzrius]

While I do not understand all of what is going on in Evengelion. Few do, and those that do are probably lying.

I found it rather easy to understand the ending, heck, I found it spoke to me rather strongly on a personal level. The movie required a bit more interpretation, but was by no means so out there as to be impossible to understand. Understanding is relative, and films that are hard to understand are by no means limited to anime.

Just look at Donnie Darko.

 

[Alzrius]

This ...

[Bruce Wayne]

... certainly looks a lot more realistic then this.

[Yugi]

And that's a universal qualifier how? Try making that comparisson again, this time using a character from Spongebob, and a character from Ghost in the Shell.

 

[Caspian Moon Prince]

I found it rather easy to understand the ending, heck, I found it spoke to me rather strongly on a personal level. The movie required a bit more interpretation, but was by no means so out there as to be impossible to understand. Understanding is relative, and films that are hard to understand are by no means limited to anime.

Just look at Donnie Darko.

Liar! Just kidding. Please explain it to me... I've always wondered exactly what is going on.

 

[Pants]

And that's a universal qualifier how? Try making that comparisson again, this time using a character from Spongebob, and a character from Ghost in the Shell.

Or how about this?

Against...

From Jin-Roh