Why the heck are bags of holding so heavy?

[Machiavelli]

Notmousse is repeating itself without any variation. Its question is general enough to be answerable by anybody, but is phrased, repeated, and supported in a mildly and perplexingly abrasive manner.

I hereby label Notmousse a troll. Perhaps a completely non-offensive troll, but a troll none the less. I'm done here.

 

[Notmousse]

If you or Jhulae find that comment insulting, then tough. Jhulae was insulting with that comment insinuating that I'm somehow an incompetent GM just because I find the idea of a bag of crap hauling weighing so much out of line.

Perhap you missed the line, it was: 'So, basically, making a gamebreaking item for the price it's listed at. Please keep us informed as to how it's works.'

What Jhulae was proposing had nothing to do with the issue I brought up. I asked why these bags weighed so much, and got 'it's magic' in return. I'd honestly hoped for some sort of reasoning, perhaps dating back to an old mod where the PCs find such a bag already full or some such. Sadly it goes back to the 'it's magic' excuse.

In your example it'd be a simple case of them not having either. They're currently 1st level, and likely wont be seeing +1 anything for some time now.

 

[Artoomis]

I find the bag weight to be a non-issue.

For some chracters, it's too heavy for them. Tough. They should have put more points into STR. That's a character-generating choice with consequences.

 

[Imperialus]

While I don't think that a weight free bag of holding would be gamebreaking I also doubt that it would nessesarally be a good thing in a campaign where you obviously give a significant amount of importance to how much weight a character is lugging around. I for one kinda like Jhulae's houserule, I might implement it myself but in the end I probably won't bother. It's a small thing to houserule and I have enough of those as it is.

Personally I don't tend to be very draconian about weight limits myself. I generally just ask my players to keep their gear "within reason" and run from the assumption that they are doing so. If I happen to see a character sheet that lists every item from the PHB equipment list plus spares I'll raise an eyebrow and ask the player if his PC would rather dump some of that junk or suffer a bent spine but that's about it.

Character audits are a punishment I mett out when someone argues over a rule or tries to ruleslawer me into something I don't want to do. I'll take their character sheet at the end of the session and go over it with a fine toothed comb looking for improperly stacked bonus' weight limits, 3rd party feats that I didn't ok stuff like that but it happens pretty rarely. I figure if my players are willing to let me bend the rules for the sake of the story I'm more than willing to do the same for them for the sake of their character concept.

 

[Arkhandus]

Bags of Holding are simply dense with the magical forces and materials that allow them to maintain a permanent connection to a vast, extradimensional pocket, in some undetermined elsewhere, in so small and (relatively) inexpensive an item. You don't see permanent Gates everywhere, but Bags of Holding? Sure thing. Secure, handy, easily-accessible, fairly lightweight for being connected to such a big, extradimensional or somehow-nondimensional, magical holding space.

Heck, for all we know, the unlisted ingredients for making a Bag of Holding include threads of heavy platinum, gold, and stuff, rendered magically flexible enough on the inside lining but still hefty.

 

[Jhulae]

What Jhulae was proposing had nothing to do with the issue I brought up. I asked why these bags weighed so much, and got 'it's magic' in return. I'd honestly hoped for some sort of reasoning, perhaps dating back to an old mod where the PCs find such a bag already full or some such. Sadly it goes back to the 'it's magic' excuse.

Except, what I house ruled did have a lot to do with what you brought up..

From post 13: Makes very little sense to me for an *empty* bag to weigh 60lbs. Game balance could be achieved simply by reducing the weight of it's contents (to 1/10th or 1/100th or what have you).

From post 46: Given it's a sack, why doesn't it weigh as much as a sack when empty?

From post 54: An *empty* bag of holding. You don't seem to be understanding this.

Your rule, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the sack weighs as much as a normal sack all the time. If that's the case, it most certainly is broken, for reasons I've already explained, but will reiterate. And, my comment wasn't snarky. I am genuinely interested in what happens in the campaign. Although, I'm not sure what role you play in it (GM or Player.. your posts have said you to be both).

I do think Notmousse's complaining about the weight of a bag of holding is much ado about nothing, but this seems a little bit of overreaction. How exactly would dropping the weight of the bag to that of a normal sack break the game?

Because, for 10k, the bag type 4 becomes a *must have* item for every adventurerer in a party to get multiples each. At 60 lbs, only the strongest characters actively carry a Type IV around.. Now, since they weigh 1 lb each, every member will have one or multiples. Even the wimpy str 8 Wizard who used to be relegated to a 5 lb haversack (and 120 lbs of capacity) can carry 5 of them (with 7500 lbs of capacity).

Sure, at 10k each, they're not cheap. But, when you can stuff each bag with 1500 lbs of treasure, suddenly, instead of being able to haul (assuming two Type IVs in a full party) 3000 lbs of statues, works of art, ancient texts, etc., the party can haul 18000 lbs of loot (assuming 3 each). The bags *more* than pay for themselves via the sheer amount of junk the party can take with them now. At no penalty. Stuff they would have been forced to pick and choose between. Honestly, they can afford to take everything not nailed down now, because some collector somewhere would probably pay for it. Even that huge pile of copper (the one no party would bother with because it's so heavy for the low value) becomes attractive.

Heck, if there's a big stone chest that has a trap on it the rogue isn't sure about picking, now you can *easily* afford to take it with you for a hired rogue to open, what with so much space available. And, even barring the weight, some light but pricy items may take up valuable space in the bag. Not an issue anymore.

Making the bags weightless (or near enough) when full makes them overly powerful for what they're priced at, as any adventuring party worth their salt can easily have the bags pay for themselves many times over, leading to gross party over-wealth. That's what's game breaking. It turns even a non-"Monty Haul" game into one, as the party *can* haul whatever they want now with no restrictions.

 

[shilsen]

Because, for 10k, the bag type 4 becomes a *must have* item for every adventurerer in a party to get multiples each.

...

Making the bags weightless (or near enough) when full makes them overly powerful for what they're priced at, as any adventuring party worth their salt can easily have the bags pay for themselves many times over, leading to gross party over-wealth. That's what's game breaking. It turns even a non-"Monty Haul" game into one, as the party *can* haul whatever they want now with no restrictions.

I see your point, but I think it only has validity in a game where PCs are constantly having to leave valuable things behind due to weight issues. And, to perhaps a lesser extent, in a game where the DM is very concerned about keeping PCs at a particular wealth level. In a campaign like my Eberron game (see sig) for example, that would hardly be a problem. I already have 11th lvl PCs walking around with over 200,000 gp worth of equipment each, and that's never been an issue.

In short, it seems to me that your concerns are valid, but only for a very specific kind of game. So I doubt Notmousse's approach is game-breaking across the board. Maybe somewhat game-shaking, however

 

[Notmousse]

Jhulae, are you somehow suggesting that 750gp in copper (as much copper as will fit into a bag of holding by weight, not volume) is broken? Honestly, if my players (Here) were to be scrounging for coppers I'm either starving them for cash, or they're not bright enough to pack supplies (which I doubt).

I'd already seen your houserule, commented on it, and moved on with my own idea for a houserule. If you missed that post it was about 14 posts back.

To reiterate myself, my game world, and the LGCS, do not have magic marts where these bags are on sale daily. If it were so then I'd be running, and playing, whole other games.

If I confused people about my status as a player or a GM it's because I'm both, GMing above, and playing this campaign.

 

[KarinsDad]

In real life you'd soil yourself if someone cast Magic Missile at you. Oddly enough DnD isn't real life.

The Magic Missile Wand equivalent is called a gun.


Think of a Bag of Holding like an Army Exoskeleton (which have been in development for years now).

The Exoskeletons currently weigh over a hundred pounds and are heavy to lug around. Even wearing them, they feel like they weigh 40+ pounds. But, they allow a soldier to carry hundreds of pounds of gear.

It matters not that the Exoskeleton still feels heavy when it is not carrying anything.

Ditto for a bag of holding.


But in the Bag of Holding case, its weight is a game balance issue which btw, is actually ignored with a Portable Hole.

Fortunately, Portable Holes cost twice as much as Type IV bags for about the same volume and one cannot retrieve items from a Portable Hole with a Move or Full Action. But to counter this and the double cost, they have that "carry a boatload of most anything for no weight" advantage.

Compared to a Portable Hole, a Bag of Holding has two advantages:

1) Can get items in and out quickly.
2) Costs half as much.

It has three disadvantages:

1) Fragile.
2) Heavy / bulky.
3) Weight limit (as opposed to only a volume limit).

Pros and Cons. There is no reason to change Bags of Holding because they are balanced as is, at least balanced with Portable Holes.

I do think Notmousse's complaining about the weight of a bag of holding is much ado about nothing

Agreed.