D&D 4E Why Vancian spellcasting is good for the game (and should mostly be in 4e)

[KarinsDad]

This is exactly the kind of thing I want in a magic system....it gives Mages the ability to manipulate their magical resources in more than one way. Rather than "I fill this 3rd level slot with Fireball, and all I can do with it is cast Fireball."

I think that of all of the things that make DND DND, fire and forget is the most sacred cow.

If they get rid of that, we'll be playing Fantasy Hero here.

And sure, some DMs do get rid of it for their game. But, that is a personal choice to play some form of Mana or Spell Point system. That's not DND. IMO.

 

[Merlion]

I think that of all of the things that make DND DND, fire and forget is the most sacred cow.

If they get rid of that, we'll be playing Fantasy Hero here.

And sure, some DMs do get rid of it for their game. But, that is a personal choice to play some form of Mana or Spell Point system. That's not DND. IMO.

1) I dont really care wether it is or isnt D&D personally, I just care wether I like it or not.

2) I think quite a few people feel the same way.

3) I know a lot of people don't feel that removing fire and forget makes it "not D&D" although there are certainly some who do

4) and most importantly, fire and forget isnt going away. Its just going to no longer be a Wizards only magical resource.

 

[Felon]

My concern has to do with the way spells can trump skills. Once a caster gets invisibility, the relevance of ranks in move silently and hide just took a major nosedive. The vancian magic system is a control on that: the rogue can stealth at will, while the mage must expend a resource.

If resource management is no longer relevant in 4e, what keeps skills from being eclipsed?

 

[Merlion]

My concern has to do with the way spells can trump skills. Once a caster gets invisibility, the relevance of ranks in move silently and hide just took a major nosedive. The vancian magic system is a control on that: the rogue can stealth at will, while the mage must expend a resource.

If resource management is no longer relevant in 4e, what keeps skills from being eclipsed?

I dont know where people are getting the idea that resource management will no longer be relevent.

Vancian spells will still exist. Invisibility will likely be one

 

[KarinsDad]

My concern has to do with the way spells can trump skills. Once a caster gets invisibility, the relevance of ranks in move silently and hide just took a major nosedive. The vancian magic system is a control on that: the rogue can stealth at will, while the mage must expend a resource.

If resource management is no longer relevant in 4e, what keeps skills from being eclipsed?

100% agreed.

In fact, you'll notice in the case of Invisibility that the designers over the years have constantly nerfed it, probably for this very reason.

1E: Indefinite
2E: 24 hours
3E: 10 minutes per level
3.5: 1 minute per level

And, they nerfed items like a Cloak of Elvenkind:

1E: 50% to 100% (and often 90% to 100%)
2E: 50% to 100% (and often 90% to 100%)
3E: +10 to Hide
3.5: +5 to Hide

In order to balance this with Rogue abilities, they really have to get rid of Indefinite Reusable Rings of Invisibility.

 

[ajanders]

I agree with Olgar.I didnt have a problem with Reserve feats because while useful,they werent the most powerful thing you could take. It also added a whole new level of resource management,(do i let the fire ball go or do i keep it in reserve to be continue to have a little magic?) But it shouldnt just be a part of the class. it should take some kind of special study.

As for stunning fist that is drawing upon chi, rage drawing upon your pent up agression. Those make sense. The arbitrary ones do not(ie maneuvers).

Let me ask a question here, since reserve feats don't seem to be a problem.

Consider the following hypothetical feat:

Master Cantrip
Requirements: The ability to prepare 3rd level spells.
Effect: Choose any cantrip you can cast. You may use this cantrip once per round as a spell-like ability. The cantrip is treated as if cast at your caster level.

This converts a traditional 1/day Vancian spell into a 1/round ability. Does it really change the game, or does it ease ability accounting? Does anyone seriously think a CR 6 or 7 monster will be impressed by Ray of Frost?

Let's consider an expansion of the idea. What if spellcasters had 1/day slots (like they do now), 1/hour slots, and 1/round slots?
Let's further consider that depending on the level of the caster (possibly modified by magical equipment or feats) lower level spells could be put into the more common slots.
A 7th level wizard, therefore, might be able to cast two cantrips once per round: disrupt undead and light, for example. They might also be able to cast shield once per hour. They might only be able to cast fireball once per day, just as they normally do.
How different is that from a wizard with a few reserve feats?
How much can that simplify bookkeeping for a wizard? Preparing for a session may be more complex, but once you're in the session, there's a lot less to forget about, then remember next day.

Do I know that's what they're doing? No. But I don't know that's what they're not doing, either.

 

[Merlion]

Let me ask a question here, since reserve feats don't seem to be a problem.

Consider the following hypothetical feat:

Master Cantrip
Requirements: The ability to prepare 3rd level spells.
Effect: Choose any cantrip you can cast. You may use this cantrip once per round as a spell-like ability. The cantrip is treated as if cast at your caster level.

This converts a traditional 1/day Vancian spell into a 1/round ability. Does it really change the game, or does it ease ability accounting? Does anyone seriously think a CR 6 or 7 monster will be impressed by Ray of Frost?

Let's consider an expansion of the idea. What if spellcasters had 1/day slots (like they do now), 1/hour slots, and 1/round slots?
Let's further consider that depending on the level of the caster (possibly modified by magical equipment or feats) lower level spells could be put into the more common slots.
A 7th level wizard, therefore, might be able to cast two cantrips once per round: disrupt undead and light, for example. They might also be able to cast shield once per hour. They might only be able to cast fireball once per day, just as they normally do.
How different is that from a wizard with a few reserve feats?
How much can that simplify bookkeeping for a wizard? Preparing for a session may be more complex, but once you're in the session, there's a lot less to forget about, then remember next day.

Do I know that's what they're doing? No. But I don't know that's what they're not doing, either.

Mogg's probably isnt with the wizard part, its with non-magical types getting at will and per day and etc abilities that dont have what he considers a reasonble rationale.

I can agree somewhat...but as has been pointed out, such abilities already exist with good consistent explanations...I dont think the new ones will be different.

 

[Rechan]

As for stunning fist that is drawing upon chi, rage drawing upon your pent up agression. Those make sense. The arbitrary ones do not(ie maneuvers).

Except that stunning fist isn't drawing on chi. A fighter, or anyone for that matter, can take Stunning fist as a feat. If they were drawing on Chi, then there should be other Chi feats.

Think of Maneuvers like the flow of a fight. A great example is a rogue with Improved Feint. Improved Feint allows him to deny a dex bonus to AC so he can sneak attack. But if the guy is just going "Look behind you" ever round, his opponent should wise up, back off, and be more cautious, but in 3e there's nothing to protect that opponent from going "Hey this guy's going to trick me again". Instead, the rogue should be able to get one sucker-punch in the middle of a toe-to-toe fight.

Fighters are not characters in a Fighting Game where you can sit and do the Chun Li Lightning Kick a dozen times in a row and just wait for the guy to come towards you. John Woo action stars don't spin around on an office chair firing two guns in every fight, just one. Indiana Jones punches the occasional Nazi out with one solid hit on occasion, but he's not clocking Nazis left and right in a toe-to-toe melee.

Get away from "The fighter swings his sword dawn to dusk and it's always the same" and more "It's fluid and exciting and I can jump in there and mix it up with my abilities".

 

[Felon]

I dont know where people are getting the idea that resource management will no longer be relevent. Vancian spells will still exist. Invisibility will likely be one

People are getting that idea from things the designers are saying. If there is an end to the "5-minute workday" and characters will have per-encounter and at-will abilities, then what happens when it's not a blast or zap, but rather a utility that eclipses a skill?

You say "invisibility will likely be one", but where do you get that idea from?

 

[Rechan]

I should note that Invisibility doesn't eclipse Move Silently. Being invisible doesn't make you any quieter.

Invisibility Eclipses HIDE.

The Fighter in platemail walking through the Evil Baron's hallway is going to draw suspicion. In a world where Invisibility is accessable to any wizard at 3rd level, any Sorcerer at 4th, and any rogue with UMD, there will be protective measures in place.

The cheapest would be guard dogs who are trained to use their scent to detect unfamiliar scents and track them down. Creatures with blindsense become an immediate benefit as guards.

Invisibility should be a tool, not a trump card.