Why we need Warlords in D&DN

Who said anything about warlords having "magic"?

A lot of warlord powers come off very magical to me. Commander strike is great, and I can picture a faint giving an ally an opening, but at some levels they give free charge attacks out of turn, sometimes they give multi players attacks against multi enemies. They heal, they from a distance make you able to shake off effects. Some of that is qusi magical feeling, but some of it feels very magic, or at least supernatural. I spun this off to not overflow this thread…
 

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A lot of warlord powers come off very magical to me. Commander strike is great, and I can picture a faint giving an ally an opening, but at some levels they give free charge attacks out of turn, sometimes they give multi players attacks against multi enemies. They heal, they from a distance make you able to shake off effects. Some of that is qusi magical feeling, but some of it feels very magic, or at least supernatural. I spun this off to not overflow this thread…
Eye of the beholder, I guess. None of the things a warlord does seems particularly "magical" to me. Not even the "healing."

Magical healing, to me, is stuff like, "heal as though you'd spent a surge," i.e. "surgeless healing." It works even if you have no surges left. Warlords generally don't do that, but there are classes that do. Clerics, for example. Which kind of puts to bed metagame concerns about how hitting a "healing wall" by running out of surges is "immersion-breaking."

YMMV.

I wouldn't worry about forking the thread. I don't plan to continue the discussion. Trying to correct the underlying assumptions that form the basis of others' viewpoints on this topic has historically always proven futile, IME.

That said, I do get behind the idea of making Warlords a type or "build" of Fighter, as you suggest. My thoughts on that are many and varied, but one of the best reasons I can think of for consolidating classes more tightly by power source is to cut down on redundancy and options-bloat, as well as sharpening the focus of powers within a given power source.
 
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A lot of warlord powers come off very magical to me. Commander strike is great, and I can picture a faint giving an ally an opening, but at some levels they give free charge attacks out of turn, sometimes they give multi players attacks against multi enemies. They heal, they from a distance make you able to shake off effects. Some of that is qusi magical feeling, but some of it feels very magic, or at least supernatural. I spun this off to not overflow this thread…

None of that has to be magical. They all sound to me like perfect things for a battlefield commander to be able to do - get his troops in good position to attack, give advice for new tactics, inspire them to find hidden reserves to keep fighting, etc.

The only way that it could feel "magical" is if you subscribe to the "hit points as wounds" mindset, which Gary pretty much called "ridiculous" back in the 1e PHB.
 


This is one of the things I really want to see back: persistent consequences for combat (after going down, being bloodied or whatever). You are quite correct that they don't need to be hp loss, but something should still affect more strategic play. Otherwise combats might as well be resolved using a percentile die (roll of 1 means someone dies).
Because this is another point of contention, I think it is something in respect of which there will probably have to be multiple options.

For example, in some playstyles the cosequences of combat aren't operational consequences (I'm wounded and can't fight as well next time) but story consequences (we won the fight, but only because I had to use my prayer to the Queen of Chaos - I wonder what she will want in return?).

As for the percentile dice point, yes and no. If a combat is of no interest to the players of the game except for its outcome, then absolutely resolve it with a single die roll. This is the gist of simple conflict resolution systems in games like Burning Wheel and HeroWars/Quest. But sometimes what matters is not just the outcome, but how that outcome is reached. For those sorts of fights, a more complex resolution system is warranted.

Because 4e only has a complex resolution system, I find it is basically essential, when GMing it, not to include any combats where only the outcome matters (ie combats which should be resolved by a single die roll or other simple mechanic).
 

For the Warlord Healing vs. Magical debate?

Hit Points = Stress, Fatigue, and Pain tolerance you can take. Thus why Illusions "hurt" you, why Psychic Attacks can tear you down, why being Missed by an attack can still leave an effect, why Fear can be deadly.

0 Hit Points for PCs = Falling into Shock, likely the Hollywood version which seems to mix the medical version with the Combat Stress Reaction. The target is "unconscious", but more disconnected with reality, not caring or understanding why he should go on. Despair, Exhaustion, Physical Lack of Adrenaline to the point the body starts to slowly shut down (Ie saving throws), and likely will give up if taken too far (the -bloody hp range).

Thus why a Warlord's words can still reach the ally who is unconscious. To give them hope, a goal, to press on just a little more, to stand up and do one more task and then he can rest.

Never underestimate the power of the mind. Placebos, Adrenaline, or just simple Focus on a Goal.

Surges are more of what a PC can take Physically in that day. Using a Surge is more like pushing past the barrier of shock just a little more, and feeling the pain of going past the limits. Onset of a headache, wounds that you put to the back of your mind, the trembling hands that you just simply ignore and press on. Meditation, relaxation, simply sitting back and taking an Ale Break are methods to push past the stress normally (Short rest), though you may be able to catch a breath in combat (Second Wind), while others have a prescence or a way with words that simply help you push past (Leader Words). Its why some PCs just can't recover later on, while everyone else can still charge forwards. They just can't ignore anymore of the injuries, stress, headaches, or the shaking limbs anymore then they have.

Thus for truly magical healing, is recovering from that stress without using a Surge. Bards, Warlords, Clerics, Sentinels, and Ardents class features all aren't magical healing really. Its just truly inspiring or driven, you easily push past the shock. Shaman's though is, as another is healed without spending a Surge. Paladin's Lay on Hands don't so much as cure an Ally's wounds, but takes them for himself to burden so it is magical in one sense (when used on himself, more like a quick prayer/meditation of faith). Cleric's Utilities that heal without a surge, such as Cure Light Wounds utility IS magical. Cleric's Astral Seal is "magical" as it heals an ally without surges being lost.

Its also what separates the PCs from the normal monsters. They can push past their limits, where as a NPC usually cannot without magical help. Of course some NPCs are known to have Limits beyond what is the norm, such as Elite and Solos.

Thus its been in my mind, anything that recovers stress (aka HP) without the use of surges, or recovers Surges themselves, is more of the magical healing in previous editions.
-Admittedly influenced by FATE systems, such as the recent the Dresden Files RPG version.

And yes, the Warlord is simply one of the best things out of 4e.
I hope for an Sword and Spell class again in 5e, similar to how I make a Warlock with Eldritch Strike all too often. Single Target control, trickery, and ability to attack at range or melee is rather fun, when stacked with the damage it can do. Even if its damage wasn't top tier in comparison to other strikers normally. I would love the Warlock as it currently is to be transported to 5e, just it honestly isn't likely to be possible at first. Its current options is probably why I like it so much, being an either/or choices quite a bit. Trickery Lurker or Solid Brute? Pure Ranged or Mixed Melee/Range? Control or Damage? Etc.
 
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we don't want 4e to go down as the New Coke of D&D editions.

I think it's a little late for that. Anyway, I hope anything like the warlord is purely optional for D&DNext. At the very least, I hope that he doesn't heal, at least not the same as the cleric. Maybe he gives some temp hp instead of healing. I really don;'t want to see "healing" people with no magic by yelling at them, (especially if they are unconscious and can't hear you) to be a default ability of a "core" class. It's okay for a miniatures wargame, but not for an RPG.


- The Great Wheel planar cosmology
- Vancian magic for some classes (let's also have some 4e style casters, but bring back old school wizards for those who love them)
- All 9 alignments[/QUOTE]

I would like these returned at least as options as well.
 

we don't want 4e to go down as the New Coke of D&D editions.


- The Great Wheel planar cosmology
- Vancian magic for some classes (let's also have some 4e style casters, but bring back old school wizards for those who love them)
- All 9 alignments

I could not say it better. 4e IS new coke, it isn’t bad, but it failed because it just isn’t the original. Going to far from basic is a problem. I think we really need to go back to AD&D (1st and 2nd e) for a lot of 5e.
 


aaaaand with "4e is New Coke" I finally filled out my 4e Analogy Bingo card!

It's a pretty good analogy, actually. By all accounts, New Coke wasn't a bad drink. It actually won over regular Coke in blind taste tests. But for all that, it wasn't what people wanted out of Coke.

Also, in the wake of the New Coke debacle, Coca-Cola admitted its mistake, returned to the old formula, and saw sales go through the roof, reversing their loss of market share to Pepsi. Although it isn't clear whether it was the company's public contrition or the much less-hyped rollout of Cherry Coke that revitalized the brand, the end result was that Coke returned to dominating the market and has not been seriously challenged since.

I imagine WotC would be very happy to see their experience with 4E parallel New Coke. :)
 

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