D&D 5E Why wimpy SLING damage and range?

And if you're trying to swing three feet of steel in an area only 5' across when you're already taking up two or three of those feet and your opponent has a dagger and is on top of you you're not going to do well. Which is why different types of weapons exist in the first place :)

Then you're down to half-sword and grappling techniques. But if they managed to close in past your reach advantage without you managing to seriously stab them, they're either more skilled, or luckier than you. - Neither of which bodes well for your chances. :)
 

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Pranqstr

First Post
The argument for distance like grapple, arms length and 5' only works in single action tactical games. D&d assumes a 6 second round, and you should have several attacks, maybe a slash a slight push and another slash. Or a high feint, low strike, parry, and pummel strike. That would eliminate the need for such close distances classifications.The only concern is can I do enough to damage you in a round. I also think 2nd ed had minimum space needed to use a weapon, so if you were in a small cave, you weren't using an axe or a pole arm. Again too much keeping track of stuff...

And back to my sling thread... if you are shooting any kind of distance, Missile weapons may require a base speed and distance speed. (lets see, you move on action 9, but the sling bullet you launch takes 2 segments to hit...) And pretty soon you have a completely different system. I would rather role play, than spend time with calculating minutia.

A few articles I've read referenced Aztec slings using "clay' stones, I would think they would be baked (hardened, ceramic has the same density as stone 2.6 to 2.8g/cm^3, up to rarely 3g/cm^3 and should be very consistent for an area), and should provide better accuracy than unsorted stones. One article stated the stones gathered from near a river about the same size ranged in weight from 105grams to 160 grams. Too great a variation for a precision slinger, but okay for a slinging shepherd.

I'm thinking about what the articles and people posted (thanks!), and while some people say use shortbow info, I think a hybrid would be more... fun(?) satisfying(?). The sling is an indirect fire weapon, so the short range should be shorter than a shortbow, and long rage should be longer with bullets. With consistent weight stones the short range should be shorter and long about equal to the shortbow. unsorted stones, use the rage given in PHB

Sling bullet (lead) 1d6 bludgeoning ammunition 70/350
Sling stones (consistent density and/or clay/ceramic) 1d4 bludgeoning ammunition 50/240
sling stones (unsorted) 1d4 bludgeoning ammunition 30/120

What does everyone think?
 

Pranqstr

First Post
oh, and unsorted stones are free. Just pick them up.
ceramic/clay stones 4cp per 20 and 24 oz (1.5 lbs) which is the same information given in the PHB for sling bullets.
sling bullets (lead) 5 sp* per 20 and 2.5 lbs*

*in a few articles the lead bullets average weight was 1.8oz to 2.25oz, so I used an average of 2 oz. The cost is pretty much made up with no references. I will try to find appropriate references
 

Anyone can use a simple weapon. Martial weapons being used without proficiency have a -1 to hit penalty. Proficiency grants a +1 to hit bonus. Fighters can use two weapon proficiencies on one weapon to become specialized. They gain advantage on the attack rolls with that weapon.
Balance issues aside, it's preferable if the ordinary-use situation is the one that doesn't apply any modifiers. Most of the time, you should just use the normal rules, and modifiers only apply if something unusual is going on.

As for balance, this sort of weapon specialization would be ridiculously overpowered. The price of advantage on every attack roll ever should never be less than a ninth-level spell slot or granting advantage on every attack made against you. Letting someone specialize is a short road to power creep.

That being said, weapon specialization is already in this edition, in the form of fighting styles. They do it by broad weapon groups, rather than specific weapons, so nobody is penalized for not finding their one specific weapon that they need. If you are a longbow specialist, and you find a magic shortbow, you don't lose access to your major class feature.
 

discosoc

First Post
Considering slings stopped being effective as armor came into use, it seems kind of weird to expect an adventurer to choose it over an actual bow.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
The thing I'd love to see is a martial option for the sling, like the slingstaff with the two-handed, ammunition properties, dealing 1d6 (or 1d8?) bludgeoning damage.
 

Pranqstr

First Post
I'm not sure why you think slings became ineffective with armor. They were very effective on leather, chain and other armor, up until plate. And most weapons are ineffective against plate. Sure an arrow can pierce plate, but only after the arrow tip was redesigned. And, even then not all the time and not very deep. Swords can't pierce plate (well, maybe a critical hit), but like sling ammo, it will leave a dent. And plate armor was extremely expensive and rare. Shot placement is everything. If you have a sling and you keep fighting plate mailed fighters and you shoot for the armor, well, you are probably making other bad choices and will not live long. Aztec skirmishers would aim (and hit) the face of the Spanish.

From what I have read, the decline of the sling was not because of advances in metallurgy making the arrow SO much better, but because of the military. The militaries wanted consistent weapons and they chose military weapons not peasant weapons.
 

Satyrn

First Post
That would be fun. Plus you could compete for gold at the Olympics. They're in Waterdeep this year!

I've even got a mini for it:

9892550_orig.jpg
 

Derren

Hero
I'm not sure why you think slings became ineffective with armor. They were very effective on leather, chain and other armor, up until plate. And most weapons are ineffective against plate. Sure an arrow can pierce plate, but only after the arrow tip was redesigned. And, even then not all the time and not very deep. Swords can't pierce plate (well, maybe a critical hit), but like sling ammo, it will leave a dent. And plate armor was extremely expensive and rare. Shot placement is everything. If you have a sling and you keep fighting plate mailed fighters and you shoot for the armor, well, you are probably making other bad choices and will not live long. Aztec skirmishers would aim (and hit) the face of the Spanish.

From what I have read, the decline of the sling was not because of advances in metallurgy making the arrow SO much better, but because of the military. The militaries wanted consistent weapons and they chose military weapons not peasant weapons.

No, not really. Sling bullets lose force quite fast. Unless the guy you shoot at is standing only a few meters away from you sling bullets would do nothing against metal armor (which wasn't that rare in the later areas and you would see entire companies with field plate). Slings were phased out not because of aesthetic reasons or because they are "peasant weapons" (a lot of peasant weapons got adapted when they proved effective) but because they simply couldn't keep up the arms race. Bows were made stronger (medieval bows are a lot different and stronger than what the ancient greeks and romans used) and the arrows could be adapted to deal with armor. For slings such advancements were impossible. Slings hit the end of the line once iron armor became common while other weapons still could be improved.
 

Pranqstr

First Post
No, not really. Sling bullets lose force quite fast. Unless the guy you shoot at is standing only a few meters away from you sling bullets would do nothing against metal armor (which wasn't that rare in the later areas and you would see entire companies with field plate). Slings were phased out not because of aesthetic reasons or because they are "peasant weapons" (a lot of peasant weapons got adapted when they proved effective) but because they simply couldn't keep up the arms race. Bows were made stronger (medieval bows are a lot different and stronger than what the ancient greeks and romans used) and the arrows could be adapted to deal with armor. For slings such advancements were impossible. Slings hit the end of the line once iron armor became common while other weapons still could be improved.

It appears you are mostly correct, and I was incorrect. The Sling was the victim of advances in warefare. It is easier to quote
http://chrisharrison.net/index.php/Research/Sling

When looking at the evolution of ranged weapons, there is a trend towards increasingly simple operation. The sling requires enormous skill, one that can generally only be obtained with training from childhood (Hawkins, 1847; Korfmann, 1973; Wise, 1976; Ferrill, 1985). Without this mastery, a person armed with the weapon would be practically useless. The sling is exceptionally difficult to aim because it is being rotated when fired. It is common for people to fire projectiles backwards when they are first learning, meaning a high degree of proficiency is needed before they can be safely placed in a battlefield situation. On the other hand, the bow could be taught at any point in life, and be deadly with minimal experience. The bow does not suffer from the sling’s accuracy problems because of its ability to be drawn and then aimed. However, archers did have to be strong, which increased the required training time (Wise, 1976). The development of the crossbow with a mechanical device to cock the weapon enabled anyone to use it and have the ability to kill even an armored soldier at distance. The crossbow was the first true ‘point-and-shoot’ weapon, as it could be cocked and then easily aimed using the large stock. Although much slower to reload than bows, it was seen as an acceptable tradeoff for the ease-of-use gained. The shift to firearms was similar. They were even slower than the already sluggish crossbow, at least at first. However, the operation was simple and there was no physical strength needed to load the weapon. Also, its ‘point-and-shoot’ nature made someone with almost no experience immediately useful on the battlefield, and very deadly. This evolution occurred primarily because of changes in military and governmental organization. In feudal times, lords could recruit their serf population as soldiers (Wise, 1976). Many of these men were already proficient with the bow or sling, which were used for hunting game. However, by the High Middle Ages, nations and cities had developed large standing armies, which were recruited, sustained, and equipped by the government (Martin, 1968). An increasing number of these recruits were from urban populations which had far less exposure to ranged weapons. These units had to be trained from scratch and there was a high turnover. This led to the increased use of weapons that were deadlier with less training. The sling was perhaps the least effective choice of ranged weapon in this role.

The style of warfare in medieval times changed as well. There was a progressively better military organization and leadership structure, causing the direction and deployment of troops to be much tighter and more integrated. Compact groups of homogenous units became increasingly prevalent during the medieval period (Ferrill, 1985). Because of the rotational action required to cast a projectile, the sling required considerable space to operate effectively. Armies of antiquity, like the Greeks, used slingers as highly mobile and loosely structured skirmishers. It would have been troublesome to pack multiple rows of slingers into a typical medieval assemblage, where each soldier would fire over the row in front of them. Even a slight misfire, launched in front but too low, could cause friendly casualties. Archers could simply point upwards, over their fellow soldiers’ heads, and could be formed into relatively dense formations. Soldiers equipped with crossbows or firearms could also be closely grouped.
Ranged attacks work especially well in volleys, as the concentrated firepower is likely to wound more people simultaneously, causing confusion and fear, and making it harder to regroup. A group of archers could draw their bows and fire simultaneously. Crossbows and firearms could do this even better. The sling was much harder to coordinate as the arming, aiming, and firing of the weapon was a single motion. People with different length arms and casting styles would fire at different moments, even if starting at the same time.
More cohesive and robust economies in later medieval times lead to a surge in castle and fortification building. This meant that armies were increasingly placed in siege situations instead of face-to-face on a battlefield. The sling was an important siege weapon in antiquity. Its high rate of fire, accuracy, arching trajectory, and versatile payload made it extremely effective. (Wise, 1974; Ferrill, 1985; Grunfeld, 1996; Bradbury, 2004) However, as the style of siege warfare matured, so did the architecture of the fortifications. Bombardment by slings became less and less effective because units were garrisoned in fortified positions. The premier armaments in these battles were heavy weapons, like trebuchets and cannons, which were able to pulverize defenses so infantry could attack. Also, newer fortifications sported special slits for ranged units (bows, crossbows, firearms), allowing them to fire from protected sniping positions (DeVries, 1956). Soldiers could draw or cock their weapon in safety, and poke the tip out of the opening. Even an experienced slinger would have great trouble firing through a thin slit or hole in a cramped chamber, let alone hit an enemy. Firing from the castle ramparts would be an equally dangerous affair for a slinger. A crossbowman or rifleman could fire from a crouched, leaning or prone position, exposing very little to the enemy’s ranged units. However, a slinger must stand, and have room to get a powerful and accurate shot. This made slingers considerably more vulnerable. Furthermore, castles had limited room on their ramparts, towers, and other defensive structures. It was vital to pack as many ranged defenders into this area as possible to repel the enemy. Since slingers required more room to operate than other ranged troops, they were rarely used in defense.
Advances in armor design were perhaps the sling’s biggest obstacle. In the early middle ages, it was common for infantry to carry a shield but wear little or no armor at all (DeVries, 1956; Martin, 1968; Nicholson, 2004). The sling would have been effective against these troops. However, by the High Middle Ages, advances in metallurgy and production meant more advanced armor was being used by knights and in greater quantity (Bradbury, 2004; Nicholson, 2004). These improvements trickled down to the common foot soldier. The formation of national or city militias meant that taxes could fund troop equipment, drastically raising the average level of armor in European armies (Martin, 1968). Plate armor became increasingly prevalent during the 1300s. By the 15th century, entire suits of plate mail were used by knights. (Blair, 1958; Nicholson, 2004) While a sling projectile has considerable impact energy, plate armor was often designed to deflect hits, reducing and redirecting the force. In addition, soldiers would wear gambesons and other padded clothes underneath their armor to diffuse the force of an impact. These new innovations made the sling ineffective. Although tipped projectiles were better suited at penetration, even archers and crossbowmen had difficulty with plate armor, which ultimately lead to the widespread adoption of firearms.

But in the fantasy word, I would think warfare may be a bit different, as magic and monsters may change things. Small groups of adventurers would be okay with the amount of space a sling takes up, and with monsters some societies would need weapons to defend. Or maybe not. But ultimately, i'm planning to see how my group will react to the new ranges and damage of the sling I suggested.
 

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