Why would a frost giant have a frost weapon?

[Jolly Giant]

As a DM I'd feel like I was cheating if the NPCs didn't play by the same rules as the PCs.

Me too. And half my group would probably just leave if I there different rules for PCs and NPCs in my campaigns.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Quite a bit has been said in regards to design, in particular, whether it is good design or poor design to give a Frost Giant a frost weapon. I'd like to respond to this question purly from a design viewpoint.

Firstly, and arguably most importantly, regular Frost Giants (MM, pg. 122) are NOT given any frost weapons, they are simply supplied with a Huge Greataxe.

Secondly, I have always been under the impression that the possesions of any given creature are suggested possesions and are, by no means, "carved in stone". Therefore, wouldn't it make sense that if, for whatever reason, the Frost Giants in your campaign would not carry such a weapon, you would simply supply them with another equal weapon of your choosing?

Thirdly, the only Frost Giants that are given a frost weapon are the Frost Giant Jarls (+2 Frost Greataxe). From a design point of view, giving a Frost Giant Jarl anything other than a frost weapon would prompt loads of questions. For instance, if you produced a Frost Giant Jarl that weilded a +2 Sonic Greataxe, imagine the feedback you would recieve: "why does the Frost Giant have a Sonic Greataxe? Is there some sort of section of thier culture that I am missing, what is the relavance?"

Fourthly, giving a Frost Giant Jarl a +2 Flaming Greataxe (which would benifit it when used against creatures in its own climate) would produce the same reaction as, say, giving a Fey a Cold Iron Longsword, or a demon a Good Aligned Mace (demons fight primarly with devils, don't they? Wouldn't this make a lot of sense?). Would it seem to you a good idea, from a design standpoint, to equip a demon with a Good Aligned Mace, or would that seem contradictory to the demon's nature?

Finally, check out the section "Frost Giant Characters" (MM, pg. 122). You'll note that Frost Giant clerics' suggested domains are: "chaos, distruction, evil, or war". There is no mention of the Cold Domain. This seems to lend to the idea that Frost Giants are not to be treated soley as cold-based casters. From a design standpoint, this seems to round the Frost Giant out fairly nicely to me.

I would say, with all of these points considered, that the designers of the Frost Giant did an excellent job. Most importantly to your point: don't like that +2 Frost Greataxe? Swap it out with something else. D&D and Wizards of the Coast seem far from "hard and fast" on these rules to me.

Hope this helps,

T from Three Haligonians

As I've said, this thread was never meant to be about frostgiants specifically. It was supposed to be about a trend that seems to reappear in every source and supplement, and what finally pushed me into starting it was Frostburn, not the MM.

As for demons using holy weapons; not in my campaign. However; IMC a demon is more likely to have a chaotic than an unholy weapon, because that would be useful against both devils and paladins. Likewise, any devil would be pleased to get his claws on a lawful weapon he can use against both demons and those pesky Kord-worshipping CG fighters! (I'm generalizing here, but I hope you all get my meaning.)

Archfiends and other super-powerful fiends sometimes have weapons with the bane (evil outsiders) ability; very useful against their blood war enemies as well as against any fiend from his own ranks that might challenge his authority or try to usurp his position of power.

This might be min/max-ing to some, but to me it's only common sense.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Why don't your demons use holy weapons?


T from Three Haligonians

 

[Sejs]

and the reply was:

A) It's keeping in theme, sort of like say a demon using an unholy weapon when the things it fights most often are other evil creatures.

and,

B) It's not useless, it's only a tiny smidge less effective against their own type, but doubly effective against their antithetical type. It's not like the only damage that's dealt comes from the energy enhancement.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Why don't your demons use holy weapons?


T from Three Haligonians

Because wielding them would hurt them; evil creatures gain a negative level just from holding a holy weapon, and good creatures get a negative level for holding an unholy weapon. I'm not sure if that rule's in the DMG or if that only applies to specific extra-powerful weapons, but it's the rule we play by.

Edit: Before somebody starts harassing me about this point; yes, the rule applies equally to PCs and NPCs!

 

[Jolly Giant]

and the reply was:

A) It's keeping in theme, sort of like say a demon using an unholy weapon when the things it fights most often are other evil creatures.

and,

B) It's not useless, it's only a tiny smidge less effective against their own type, but doubly effective against their antithetical type. It's not like the only damage that's dealt comes from the energy enhancement.

A) Why are cold/fire creatures so keen on staying true to their "theme" then? Oh, you mean designers stick to the theme? Yeah, that's what I've been saying.

B) What I said was that the specific enhancement was useless against their own type, not the entire weapon.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Because wielding them would hurt them; evil creatures gain a negative level just from holding a holy weapon, and good creatures get a negative level for holding an unholy weapon. I'm not sure if that rule's in the DMG or if that only applies to specific extra-powerful weapons, but it's the rule we play by.

Edit: Before somebody starts harassing me about this point; yes, the rule applies equally to PCs and NPCs!

This is a good point that I hadn't considered and I concede the point to you. In regards to my other four points, have I changed your mind concerning the design of Frost Giants (taking into consideration that yes, Frost Giants is just an example that you chose at the beginning of the thread.)?

T from Three Haligonians

 

[Jolly Giant]

Fourthly, giving a Frost Giant Jarl a +2 Flaming Greataxe (which would benifit it when used against creatures in its own climate) would produce the same reaction as, say, giving a Fey a Cold Iron longsword

Most importantly to your point: don't like that +2 Frost Greataxe? Swap it out with something else. D&D and Wizards of the Coast seem far from "hard and fast" on these rules to me.

An evil fey IMC would definitely go for a cold iron weapon if he could get one, although he'd want it to be something with a wooden handle; like an axe or mace.

For your last point, what you suggest is what I most often do. I rarely use monsters or NPCs exactly as they are printed.

 

[Sejs]

A) Why are cold/fire creatures so keen on staying true to their "theme" then? Oh, you mean designers stick to the theme? Yeah, that's what I've been saying.

Yeah, technically the designers are the ones that lay down that sort of thing. In the same way that the designers say that Frost Giants are big, icy vikings rather than saying Frost Giants are big, purple skinned, democratic samoans with mohawks that play the violin.


But then again, the designers are the same folks that say elves have pointy ears. Maybe you don't like your elves with pointy ears, and hey you're free to have non-pointy eared elves in your game. But alot of folks, the majority I'd venture to say, like their elves with pointy ears (traditional fantasy like), just the same way they like their fire creatures using fire attacks (traditional fantasy like) and their cold creatures using cold stuff (again, traditional fantasy like).

And those same designers understand that when most of their target consumers want a traditional fantasy game, that they should design a traditional fantasy game. Much in the same way that a country singer knows that the majority of people who buy his records like country music, and that if he releases an R&B album many folks won't buy it because it's not what they want.

 

[Particle_Man]

Personally, I think that most demon lords would have a holy weapon. A negative level is a small price to pay to beat the DR of your back-stabbing "allies".

Similarly, it seems logical for a Frost Giant to have a flaming weapon to settle internal disputes and become chief of the Frost Giants that much faster.

Since good characters rarely have to worry about other paladins, solars, etc., trying to waste them if they show the slightest sign of weakness, there would be little incentive to wield an unholy weapon. Not to say it never happens, but it is far more likely that good folk will be fighting evil critters than good critters. Evil folk have to worry about good critters AND other evil critters, and evil vs. evil happens more often than good vs. good.

All that said, I am a lazy DM, so magical weapons that my monsters use, unless stated otherwise in some module or the MM, will likely be the rather pedestrian no-frills +X weapon. Just like I usually choose Toughness multiple times for the feats of NPCs.