Why WOULDN'T a druid take Natural Spell??

[Elder-Basilisk]

Nonsense. If a feat is taken "all the time" it generally means that either a group of players has become obsessed with one aspect of the game ("If I take Improved Initiative, Blooded, Thug, and a high dex, I can get +12 to my initiave so I'll always go first"), the feat is essential for a particular build of a particular character class (an evoker focussed on Ray spells really needs point blank and precise shot for instance and every archer takes point blank, precise, and rapid shot).

Nearly every spellcaster takes Spell Penetration. That doesn't mean Spell Penetration is too powerful. Nor does it mean that spellcasters can't be effective without it (the healing cleric, buffing transmuter, and summoning druids, clerics, and wizards have little use for Spell Penetration). Similarly, nearly every fighter takes weapon specialization. That doesn't mean it's too powerful either. It just means that melee fighters need every bit of damage they can muster. . . and that fighters with low int and dex tend to run out of other useful feats pretty quickly.

In any event, the feat being "too good" is a relative matter. A feat need only be better than the available alternatives in order to regularly be selected as the top min-max choice. 3.5 Spell Focus, for instance is definitely not "too good." However, it's better than the other alternatives for increasing spell DCs (heighten spell) so it regularly shows up in wizard builds. Toughness would be the best feat around if all the other feats only added +1 to skill rolls. A feat that is "too good" isn't one that is better than every other feat. A feat that is too good is one that allows characters to do things that they shouldn't be able to do at their levels (or possibly at any level).

Actually, a feat that every character of a class takes should not be added to the class as an ability. More likely if a feat is taken all the time, then that feat is too good.

 

[Crothian]

Nonsense. If a feat is taken "all the time" it generally means that either a group of players has become obsessed with one aspect of the game, the feat is essential for a particular build of a particular character class.

Actually, the games designers have come out and said that if a feat is taken by everyone, that is a warning that the feat may be too powerful.

Okay, we know that this has nothing to do with a group as we have at least a dozen different people from different groups saying that this feat is always taken by druids. So we know it is not the first one. It may be the second one that people want a Druid that can shapechange and cast spells at the same time. But I don't see that as a particuliar build like an archer, it's more combining the two strongest areas of the class.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

As a game-design exercise we might think about different nerfs to apply to Natural Spell and then ask "Would everyone still take Natural Spell?" For instance, what if you could only cast a spell every other round while WildShaped? Is Natural Spell still an automatic choice in that case? I suspect it still is! What if spells all become Full Round actions? Hmm, thats getting tougher, but I suspect you still take the feat anyway - because it's still better than the other options.

Agreed?

And if so, this leads back to the original question - the reason why all Druids take this feat is because it would be good at half the power, but as written its flat-out [/I]incredible.

It is a very good exercise, but it is not always illuminating.

Would Fighters still take Weapon Specialization if it gave a +1? Often enough, yes, because dishing out damage is their bread and butter.

IMNSHO, Combat Reflexes was a very solid feat in 3.0. Yet the designers enhanced it in 3.5. Why? Probably it was just too much bother to split it into a feat chain. Smooth mechanics trumps precise power balancing.

If Scribe Scroll were not automatically given to Wizard's at level 1 but a feat from the wizard's list instead, would all Wizards choose Scribe Scroll? I think so. Should we therefore consider nerfing Scribe Scroll?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Okay, we know that this has nothing to do with a group as we have at least a dozen different people from different groups saying that this feat is always taken by druids. So we know it is not the first one. It may be the second one that people want a Druid that can shapechange and cast spells at the same time. But I don't see that as a particuliar build like an archer, it's more combining the two strongest areas of the class. [emphasis added]

In this case it is a good thing, and most likely is done on purpose by the game designers.

From the PHB:

Role: The druid enjoys extraordinary versatility. Though she lacks the sheer healing power of the cleric, she makes up for it with additional offensive power, thanks to her spell selection and wild shape ability. A druid backed up by another secondary healer (such as a paladin) can prove extremely valuable to a group of adventurers. Her animal companion also provides valuable melee combat support. [italics added]

What this describes is a second-tier character in a lot of roles. Not good enough of a healer to keep a party alive without some backup (it suggests that explicitly!), a bit of offensive punch but only better than a cleric (doesn't even bother to mention wizards or sorcerors), and other useful support features.

The point of Natural Spell is to enhance the flexibility of the class. Without Natural Spell the Druid is either a second rate caster OR a second rate combatant. I would call that inflexible, because at any given moment in time the Druid is functioning at bare competence in one area only. A truly versatile character does not need to spend an action changing skins before changing tact.

My gaming experience with Wildshape in 1e/2e was to never even bother. It could make for useful scouting, but caused dithering on the part of the Druid when something really dangerous appeared. From the party's POV, Wildshape just meant the Druid misses the first round of combat. What kind of benefit is that?

Finally, I do not agree that Natural Spell is a must have feat. A Druid that chooses to pick up Spell Focus Conjuring and Augment Summoning may well avoid melee in any form. For such a Druid, Scribe Scroll and Spell Penetration are more valuable. A must have feat that can wait until 15th level is not a must have feat.

I personally do not see that Wildshaping and charging into melee as attractive unless you are either have a high Con or are fighting mooks. With a modest AC, you gravely risk getting shredded. Not every PC will have a 14+ Con. And there are many, many other ways to skin a mook.

 

[jgsugden]

Not all druids take this feat at 6th level. Some wait til 9th or 12th. Some never take it. And some that do take it at 6th do not get much benefit out of it. Druids do not get unlimited spells. If they need to do some healing or precombat spells, they may not have anything worth casting during combat. I think it is a useful feat for most druids, but it is overrated. It is not a must have feat, just a feat that many druids *think* they must have.

 

[green slime]

Comparing this feat to weapon specialisation is extremely misguided: weapon specialisation does not increase the versatility of the fighter class: it narrows a specialised ability.

It would be more comparative to suggest that the Exotic Weapon feat be made to apply to all exotic weapons. Barely a fighter would be without it then, because of the increased versatility offered. But in fact, even this feat pales in comparison to the versatility offered by Natural Spell.

 

[Darklone]

Well... the druids defense relies on his saving throws and his d8 hitdice. He's got offensive spells and offensive combat prowess.

The feat allows him to combine both since his offensive spellcasting is worse than a wizards and his fighting alone would be not much better than a buffed up barbarian.

The only problem I have with the druids wildshaping is if he starts to use weapons in animal form. But that's up to the DM, so no problem for me.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Actually, a feat that every character of a class takes should not be added to the class as an ability. More likely if a feat is taken all the time, then that feat is too good.

I think the feat is far too good. In addition to the extreme desirability of the feat for most members of the druid class, I compare it with other ways of attaining the same facility with existing feats...

Basically it rolls together Still spell, silent spell and eschew materials into one handy thing for druids which doesn't even give a level adjustment to spells ?!?

I think they should have given it a +1 level adjustment. That would have made it useful, but not such an utterly fantastic feat as it is at the moment.

Cheers

 

[Darklone]

Nice idea, PS.

 

[pppo]

It is a really great feat. But it is too good. The advantage it offers in 3.5 is worth two feats IMO.

A level adjustment of +1 as plane sailing suggested seems to be ok (Therefore one might need to change the type of this feat from [General] to [Metamagic]).
Of course the benefit from still, silent and eschew is bigger than that from natural; but one needs three feats and a +2 level adjustment to get this bigger advantage. Moreover a caster who prepares spells, like a druid, might prepare a silent, still, eschew spell without needing it. With the level adjustment of +1 for Natural spell the druid might waste slots, too . But that is the way it should be for casters who prepare spells.
Nevertheless, the flexibility to be able to cast a spell wild shaped or in natural form is more than worth a +1 adjustment for a druid. It would be still a great feat. But not as overpowered as it is now.

BTW: Why not make this feat available for other classes?