D&D 5E Why you shouldn't allow optional rules.

[MechaPilot]

That's actually a good idea. I mean, I don't play 4e and I admit I'm not too familiar with it, but I can easy see creating a fighter maneuver that takes the 4e Comeback daily into something like: "Spend a superiority die. Add the result of this die to your damage total, and heal an amount of HP of an equal amount."

Thank you.

The primary differences between the 4e powers and the way that 5e works are targeted defenses, damage dealt, multiple attacks are only included through certain powers, and the resource structure.

If the powers are an entire action, then use of a power would preclude making multiple attacks in a round (though some powers would effectively make up for this by affecting more than one enemy, such as the lvl 3 fighter power Sweeping Blow).

Powers often use multiples of weapon damage as they increase in level. For single target powers, this effectively constitutes spending all of your multiple attacks on one. For multi-target powers this gets a little trickier to consider as assigning your multiple attacks to different targets. Some of the high level multi-target powers could best be considered as a combination of 5e's Action Surge with dividing multiple attacks among all the targets.

Targeted defenses could be handled in a couple different ways. Personally, I would just use an ability score as the DC, so a power that pushes would use the target's Strength score as the DC instead of adding time and rolls with opposed checks. Although, you could always reverse the attacker rolls concept into a saving throw for the target if you wanted to instead.

The resource structure is probably the biggest concern, as this will balance the damage output of the powers. That said, there are plenty of potential models one could use for this; I have at least four different models in mind: combo points (build them up and spend them during battle), expertise points (a martial spell-point type resource), roll-based (roll against a higher AC for a better potential effect), and momentum-based (using a power leaves you off-balance for a round or two, imposing disadvantage).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It depends on what you mean by "on par with". Having as many individual options (like spells)? probably not. Effective in overall game play? Sure they are.

what I mean are breath of options and usefulness of options...

example: the wizard can prep wiz level + int mod spells, those spells are useful in combat, in exploration, in role playing, in social... Will the fighter ever have 1/2 of that... lets take a 12 level wizard with +3 int (conservative to the max) that 15 options spread out between the 'pillars of play'... will the fighter ever have 8?

As far as contributing to group success goes, the martial classes in my campaign are holding up very well against the spell casters. The battle master fighter has a lot of good options and the barbarian is a raging death machine.

how many of those options are as cool or multi faceted as the spells?

Casters still get flashy effects (because MAGIC) but their overall power isn't higher than martial types because of it. The concentration rules and limited spell slots do a great job.

I want a supernatural fighter who also gets flashy effects because FANTASY....

All the classes feel useful during encounters even though the bells & whistles are feel very different .

that hasn't been my experience so far, I hope once the full campaign starts in the new year you are right...

Use the 4e powers, because you absolutely can. There is a little bit of conversion that has to go on, but it's not particularly difficult to do so.

at witch point what is the adavantage over just using 4e?

Or, you could come up with your own maneuvers system. I have done this. I have a couple of different versions: one that uses combo points, one that is roll-based, and I am still working on another one that is based on a resource more akin spell points.

yea in a perfect world I would take the time to make a mix there of... a combo style of at will and encounter attacks tht work togather

 

[MechaPilot]

at witch point what is the advantage over just using 4e?

I can't speak to that because whether or not there is an advantage depends on your feelings about the rest of the system. If bounded accuracy, spell points or vancian casting, quicker combats, and simplification of modifiers through (dis)advantage are things you want while also wanting 4e-style powers then those things would be the advantage of using 5e with 4e-style powers added. If none of the things that are generally seen as features of 5e are important to you, then I can't see any advantage in using 5e over 4e.

yea in a perfect world I would take the time to make a mix there of... a combo style of at will and encounter attacks that work together

If you're interested, you can find my first stab at a maneuver system that overlaps with the basic rules of 5e on the WotC forums:

http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4142066

 

[Tormyr]

At my table, we have been running Age of Worms, a 3.5 AP converted to 5e. I have allowed feats and multiclassing. Most of the myriad of magic items have survived the conversion with a few exceptions:
* +X items are converted down to 5e versions: +1 & +2 = +1; +3 & +4 = +2; +5 and up = +3
* Only named/leader NPCs can have magic items

Everyone has a +1 to AC and weapon. I have 7 players at my table.

With all of that, everyone, including me, still has fun.

Multiclassing delays or foregoes power for variety. Ability score increases, feats, and class features are pushed back or missed completely to make way for the second class. Our Rogue 7/Monk 1 is an ability score increase behind everyone else.

Feats trade ability score increases for specialized powers, but that means that skills and saving throws suffer. The half-gnoll paladin chose heavy weapon master over going to 20 on strength.

Lots of +1 magic items are just that in the end: +1 magic items. Needing a 13 instead of a 12 to hit is not a big deal.

The players still have their fantastic moments and their "Oh ****!" moments.

4 sessions ago, the level 7 party was jumped by 3 invisible stalkers while crossing rotting beams. 2 of the characters went unconscious, one of them twice.
2 sessions ago, a naga cast hold person on the a fighter who had wandered off. The others negotiated for her release and then sucker punched the naga.
Last session, the level 8 party was swarmed by 5 CR4 octopins. The dragonborn sorcerer was swarmed by 3 of them, and the players jaws dropped when one of the Octopins hit with both its attacks, gripped with both claws and tore at the sorcerer for a total of 4d8+12 damage from all the combined attacks and bonus damage, and I rolled a 4,5,6,and 7. So the sorcerer went down.
Then they went into a room with a large stone brain with damage reduction that was a dominate person trap. The whirling dervish of destruction fighter was controlled and started making mincemeat of the party before they finally wore the brain down.

My thought is that it does not matter if you include or do not include multiclassing, feats or gratuitous magic items. The game can still work and be fun for all parties.

 

[ExploderWizard]

what I mean are breath of options and usefulness of options...

If you want breath options then play a dragonborn.

I want a supernatural fighter who also gets flashy effects because FANTASY....

Have you looked at the eldritch knight? There is your magic using martial class.

There wouldn't be any wizards if everyone had wizard spells & abilities. It would become the new average Joe.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Once again, the overall consensus in the thread seems to be "If these things don't work for you and your table, you shouldn't use them... but if they appear to work for you fine then go ahead."

Optional rules are optional to use.

Wow. Whodathunkit?

 

[aramis erak]

If you want breath options then play a dragonborn.



Have you looked at the eldritch knight? There is your magic using martial class.

There wouldn't be any wizards if everyone had wizard spells & abilities. It would become the new average Joe.

Not necessarily... if wizards are more flexible, potent and powerful than the average joe, then you can have a setting where everyone knows a handful of spells, but wizards know a dozen+, and are better at casting them, too...

It winds up with a different feel, one closer to RuneQuest.

Then again, Rolemaster also had a zillion spellcasting classes (and a handful of martial-only), and still managed to get players playing the non-casters (because they could learn more skills than their comparable caster types).

 

[Leatherhead]

Once again, the overall consensus in the thread seems to be "If these things don't work for you and your table, you shouldn't use them... but if they appear to work for you fine then go ahead."

I hate it when I don't get my ideas across

My intent was to point out that the optional rules require additional effort to use.

 

[Tormyr]

I hate it when I don't get my ideas across

My intent was to point out that the optional rules require additional effort to use.

That came across. I think several people disagreed.

EDIT: That probably came across as rude, and I apologize. I think you managed to express yourself well, but there are several people with the other viewpoint. That probably wasn't much better, but you get the idea.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If you want breath options then play a dragonborn.



Have you looked at the eldritch knight? There is your magic using martial class.

There wouldn't be any wizards if everyone had wizard spells & abilities. It would become the new average Joe.

maybe I'm not making myself clear... I want a fighter who has options that are not spells or spell like, but are martial based...

example: in 4e I had a played a warlord based on a loose basic of Captain Sheridan from Babylon 5 (he was most well known for taking a barely adequate defense and turning it into a kick butt offense) I had 3-4 got to tricks I could pull out all the time, I could inspire people to push on with a few simple words, and I could help set bones and heal minor wounds in-between fights, when I went all out though I could pull huge tricks on opponents like pre set actions to quadrate actions... this was all of course atwill/encounter/daily based.

in 5e I can do almost none of this...martial healing is non exsitant, martial temp hp are very hard to come by giving extra attacks or bonuses are hard, there in nothing like my character...

we also had a rogue who could blind people, do AOE attacks with knives and sherikens, and slow or daze opponints...