Wild Shape: no vermin.

[DonaldRumsfeldsTofu]

There are a lot of illogical parts of the druid, especially in 3.5

 

[BASHMAN]

There are a lot of illogical parts of the druid, especially in 3.5

Yeah, especially allowing them to use bows and arrows! What were they thinking! In case you cannot tell, I am being sarcastic. IMO 3.5 SAVED the druid (If a PC plays an elf, a woodland race, but cannot use elven weapons as a druid, that is DUMB). 3.5 fixed that, allowing druids to use any weapon they know how to use without penalty on their magic.

Think about it: clerics don't have some dumb limitation stating that if they pick up a sword, their spells don't work for a week until they atone. That was in 3.0. 3.5 just fixed this for druids.

 

[DonaldRumsfeldsTofu]

Yeah, especially allowing them to use bows and arrows! What were they thinking! In case you cannot tell, I am being sarcastic. IMO 3.5 SAVED the druid (If a PC plays an elf, a woodland race, but cannot use elven weapons as a druid, that is DUMB). 3.5 fixed that, allowing druids to use any weapon they know how to use without penalty on their magic.

Think about it: clerics don't have some dumb limitation stating that if they pick up a sword, their spells don't work for a week until they atone. That was in 3.0. 3.5 just fixed this for druids.

I wasn't aware of that change at all. And I always thought the weapon limitation was because druids have the power to befriend creatures that can do 1d12 points of damage with a natural weapon, and clerics can't

I was mostly referring to the lame nerfing of the animal companions, making them essentially familiar clones. They should have kept the Animal Friendship method, and expanded it to include all creatures that were classified as beasts in 3.0, and at higher levels, or after taking a feat, allow it to work on vermin, plants, and aberrations as well. And Animal Empathy should have been kept a skill, that would be cross-class for anyone except druids and rangers. Diplomacy and Animal Empathy are two completely different concepts. Persuading the duchess not to cut off your hand and persuading a bird not to fly away in fear of you are two completely different skills.

But I'm getting on a tangent. Getting back on subject, isn't there a Vermin Wild Shape feat in the Epic Level Handbook?

 

[Zappo]

Maybe wild shape is extremly painful when you turn your endoskeleton into an exoskeleton?

Aaargh. That's a good explanation for me.

 

[Breakstone]

It could be argued that, while a wolf or tiger or ape is a natural creature, a spider the size of a dinner table is an unnatural creature.

Just offering an explanation. I think, though, that the whole poison thing is why. I recall an article in Dragon saying why vermin are bad as the "Big Bad Evil Boss" for lower-level characters- the Poison will most likely kill lower level characters right away (at least, I think that was the reason).

 

[Sejs]

It could be argued that, while a wolf or tiger or ape is a natural creature, a spider the size of a dinner table is an unnatural creature.

Fair enough, but it is a stretch to say that a spider the size of a dinner table is any less natural than a walking mass of vines, moss and other plant matter.

 

[Breakstone]

Fair enough, but it is a stretch to say that a spider the size of a dinner table is any less natural than a walking mass of vines, moss and other plant matter.

Heh heh heh... too true...

 

[glass]

Poison. Wild Shape works like Polymorph. Polymorph includes extraordinary powers, like poison. Allowing a shift to the appropriate-sized vermin might well grant the druid access to an attack form that turned out to be unbalancing....

Does poson work with polymorph? I was under the impression that stuff seperated from you returned to its original form, hence ceased to be poisonous as soon as it was injected.

Did this get dropped somewhere in the last 2 editions and I didn't notice?


glass.

 

[Umbran]

Does poson work with polymorph?

The 3.5E version of polymorph reads:
"The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constituion socres of the new form, but retains it's own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the new form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison) but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities posessed by the new form (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent) or any supernatural or spell-like abilities."

I personally think the "removed from the body" explanation some folked used for the 3e spell doesn't really work well as a justification for not giving poison. That'd be akin to saying that your saliva and sweat are "part of your body", which sounds pretty weak. Rather than try to justify it, simply say that the 3E magic simply doesn't do that.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Something that struck me as odd while talking to my wife about wild shape for a druid she's working on for an upcoming game. A druid can change into an animal, and later on a plant. Mammal, piscean, avian, reptilian, mollusk, you name it - but no bugs. A druid can pull off a redwood, but a spider is just beyond them.

<pedantic>"A druid can’t use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn’t a creature, such as a tree or rose bush."</pedantic>

So, unfortunately, no redwoods.

And Animal Empathy should have been kept a skill, that would be cross-class for anyone except druids and rangers. Diplomacy and Animal Empathy are two completely different concepts. Persuading the duchess not to cut off your hand and persuading a bird not to fly away in fear of you are two completely different skills.

Of course they are, that's why it doesn't use the Diplomacy skill. It just uses the same DCs.