D&D (2024) Wild shape on the core druid should be...

[Bill Zebub]

So this is an issue I have with templates - we talk about the problem with wildshaping into animals from the MM creating clear winners and losers, but templates will likely do the same thing if past experience is anything to go by.

The question is how low or high the bar is. There will always be somebody who uses the Tiny Infiltrator template to tank, sure, but that wouldn’t be evidence that templates don’t (or can’t) require less system mastery.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The druid more or less was one of the most powerful classes. Its "complexity" is what made it unpopular.

Did you think it was too complex? I didn’t. And I never heard anybody describe it as too complex. But maybe there’s some evidence out there suggesting it was. If so, I haven’t seen it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So this is an issue I have with templates - we talk about the problem with wildshaping into animals from the MM creating clear winners and losers, but templates will likely do the same thing if past experience is anything to go by.

I'm leaning more towards just keeping wild shape as is, but toning down the CR for low level moon druids.

Also...I like the elemental forms, but those feel like they belong in a different sub-class, don't they? More of a shamanistic druid, perhaps.

My preferred solution so far is to combine Sea and Land into one form, and then have an aerial form seperate. And at that point, with just two options, it would be really hard NOT to have them balanced.

 

[Chaosmancer]

All druids should get Wildshape, BUT with huge balancing Drawbacks. I recommend:

1.Wildshape does 1/2 your normal health HP is damage. This stops all the "maximum Hit Points per level" exploit, as it cuts down on HPs.
2.Limit the animals not only to where the druid is based, but where they are.....maybe even a nice nature point system, where each point gives a form.
3.Do mental damage, cut the mental scores down by 1/3. So, again, even the character with the exploit of all 18s, would have their Int, Wis and Chr all damaged down to 6.

Without talking about Moon Druids, why do you think that is necessary at all?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't know, I'd have to see someone play a Druid that isn't a Moon Druid.

I played a Dream druid, he was great. Saw a friend play a Wildfire Druid, and had a Star Druid in a game. They were all excellent concepts.

 

[Chaosmancer]

All the casters of 5e needed some sort of a nerf. The base druid needed a little one but the moon druid needed a big one.

The druid more or less was one of the most powerful classes. Its "complexity" is what made it unpopular.

"all casters need a nerf" is a very different argument, and one I would counter with "no, all martials need a buff"

And the druid has not been one of the powerful classes. The Moon druid has been a powerful option at certain levels, those are vastly different things.

 

[Minigiant]

Did you think it was too complex? I didn’t. And I never heard anybody describe it as too complex. But maybe there’s some evidence out there suggesting it was. If so, I haven’t seen it.

I DMed for 2 druids run by relatively newer players. It usually took a combination of me and the group's rules lawyers to use most of the class. They constantly forgot want they could do.

 

[aco175]

I was thinking that druids get a basic shape to start off with like a cat or dog, not sure on flying though. At 3rd level they have more options in the subclass like something that competed with combat over utility, where other subclasses might gain more forms or uses per day. At certain levels there can be more boosts to the base form like increase in speed or ability to fly, swim, dig, etc... The combat focused form could even gain additional attacks. I like the idea of burning spells like smite as well.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I DMed for 2druids run by related newer players. Itusually look a combination of me and the groups rules lawyers to use most of the class.They constantly forgot want they could do.

I find that happens with newcomers and most caster classes. In any event, are Druids only unpopular among “relative newcomers who have enough experience to know Druids are complicated” or are they underrepresented across the board?

And aren’t some complex classes popular?

 

[Minigiant]

I find that happens with newcomers and most caster classes. In any event, are Druids only unpopular among “relative newcomers who have enough experience to know Druids are complicated” or are they underrepresented across the board?

And aren’t some complex classes popular?

Druid was the least popular class according to DNDB in 2020.
Druid was alse the only class where the free SRD subclass wasn't most popular. Moon druid beat Land druid by a lot.