Wild Shape to escape Grapple?

[Darklone]

Common sense, not arguments from silence, is the way to go. If I am grappling with, say, a six-foot-tall human who suddenly transforms into a six-inch-long mouse, there is at least the potential that my grip has been broken.

Also, I'd be seriously freaked out.

Ah well, consider the abovementioned case with the Dire Shark... Sure, I am still grappling with it, but do I really want to???

 

[Grazzt]

Wildshaping is not specifically listed as a means to not escape from a grapple; therefore, doing so will actually break an existing grapple.

The rules also do not state that a character cannot fly by flapping his arms really fast while jumping off a cliff, but the general consensus is that unless you have wings (or some other means of flying) you cannot fly.

Common sense, not arguments from silence, is the way to go. If I am grappling with, say, a six-foot-tall human who suddenly transforms into a six-inch-long mouse, there is at least the potential that my grip has been broken.

Also, I'd be seriously freaked out.

Yep. I'd freak out too. But you are still grappled. Realism and logic isnt (and never has been) a part of D&D (besides applying logic to the ability to wild shape is a bit weird anyway ). If wild shaping could be used to escape a grapple, it would say so either in the wild shape description or the grapple description.

Winning an opposed grapple check (page 136, PH) or making a successful Escape Artist check (page 137, PH) are the only ways to get free.

 

[Pielorinho]

I think it's not arguing from silence -- it's arguing from rules. Strictly speaking, the rules give several ways to escape a grapple, and wildshaping isn't one of them.

However, I do think that it'd be a very reasonable house-rule to allow the following:
-A creature that changes shape dramatically while in a grapple may make an immediate grapple check to escape the grapple (or break a pin).
-A creature trying to escape a grapple may use her dex bonus, rather than her strength bonus, to get free.
-A grappling creature, on making a successful bluff check, may deny her opponent the use of his str bonus on his next grapple check.

As written the grappling rules favor large opponents more than I'd like, essentially helping them out twice (once with the strength bonus for being big, and once with the size bonus to grappling). I'd like to see some rules that gave smaller critters a fighting chance: as you know if you've ever tried to hold onto a squirming cat, feisty creatures are hard to keep hold of.

Daniel

 

[Grazzt]

As written the grappling rules favor large opponents more than I'd like, essentially helping them out twice (once with the strength bonus for being big, and once with the size bonus to grappling). I'd like to see some rules that gave smaller critters a fighting chance: as you know if you've ever tried to hold onto a squirming cat, feisty creatures are hard to keep hold of.

Daniel

Technically though, being big (Large, Huge, etc.) doesnt necessarily mean you get a Str bonus. Look at the Otyugh for example: Large with a Str 11 (no Str bonus).

I do tend to agree that smaller creatures should have some sort of chance to escape (like the fiesty cat you mention). I guess WotC rolled that up into the Escape Artist skill (since smaller creatures, in a lot of cases) have higher Dex scores than their larger counterparts. Perhaps a bonus to Escape Artist checks based on size when used to escape a grapple (like the bonus to grapple checks or Hide checks based on size).

 

[Pielorinho]

Technically though, being big (Large, Huge, etc.) doesnt necessarily mean you get a Str bonus. Look at the Otyugh for example: Large with a Str 11 (no Str bonus).

I base that roughly off the chart on Size Increases in the MM, in which moving from size medium to large grants (for example) a +8 strength bonus. This doesn't always apply, but the tendency is for big creatures to be substantially stronger than comparable medium-sized creatures -- compare the house cat (tiny, str 3) to the leopard (medium, str 16) to the tiger (large, str 23) to the dire tiger (huge, str 27). You can make similar comparison with different birds, with dogs, with monkeys, with monstrous humanoids, and so forth. It's not a hard-and-fast rule, but it's a strong tendency, that smaller creatures are weaker than similarly-shaped larger creatures.

On reflection, it's actually a triple-whammy: larger creatures also have more hit-dice leading to a higher BAB on the grapple check.

Your idea of giving an escape-artist size bonus might work -- I'm not really sure. The dex bonus that you get for being small doesn't come nearly close enough to providing a means of escape from a gbig creature, however -- in my experience, the double-whammy of strength and size increases make it nearly impossible for a grappled victim to escape a grappler even one size larger.

I do think it should be difficult, but I don't want it to be impossible, for a smaller creature to escape the grapple of a larger creature.

Daniel

 

[Christian]

C'mon, guys. The rules can't possibly, and aren't intended to, cover all conceivable situations. Wildshaping into a mouse would be a very clever means of escaping a grapple, but one on whose success the DM would have to make an ad hoc ruling. I think I'd make the grappler try a Reflex save of DC18 or DC20 to hold on ...

 

[Grazzt]

C'mon, guys. The rules can't possibly, and aren't intended to, cover all conceivable situations. Wildshaping into a mouse would be a very clever means of escaping a grapple, but one on whose success the DM would have to make an ad hoc ruling. I think I'd make the grappler try a Reflex save of DC18 or DC20 to hold on ...

Right. That was kinda my point in my post above (about flying by flapping your arms not being covered either yay or nay in the rules). That's one of the jobs of a DM....being able to make a spot ruling when something comes up that isnt covered by the rules. And like you said, the rules cannot possibly cover every conceivable situation or action or circumstance. Sometimes, it is really up to the DM to make his own call (a task that sometimes seems to be forgotten by newer DMs).

 

[Hypersmurf]

On reflection, it's actually a triple-whammy: larger creatures also have more hit-dice...

I always loved the Aurumvorax...

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

Wildshaping into a Dire Shark might not help with grappling... BUT...

but... you can really show that grappler what for by suffocating yourself because you're now a shark on dry land?


That'll teach 'im!

 

[Mark Chance]

But you are still grappled.

Where do the rules say this?

Realism and logic isnt (and never has been) a part of D&D (besides applying logic to the ability to wild shape is a bit weird anyway ).

Where do the rules say this? More to the point, it is not applying logic to wild shape. It is applying common sense to the situation of a grappler suddenly being confronted with a radical change in size, weight, and shape in his foe.

I never used the word "logic" in my original post on this topic. Now, not only is there argument from silence, we have bait-and-switch to set up a strawman.

If wild shaping could be used to escape a grapple, it would say so either in the wild shape description or the grapple description.

Back to the argument from silence.

Winning an opposed grapple check (page 136, PH) or making a successful Escape Artist check (page 137, PH) are the only ways to get free. Emphasis added

And full on to unsupportable claims. Here are some others ways to escape from a grapple:

1. Kill the grappler.

2. Become incorporeal.

3. Teleport away.

4. Dominate the grappler and command him to release you.

Et cetera, et cetera.