Wildshape + Animal Growth =/= huge size

[Xavim]

Wow, it's amazing how this was a pretty civilized discussion that wrapped up for the most part. Now a bunch of condescending (and some, wrong) people show up and try to "show me". Jeez. Lame.

I already stated I could very well be wrong but this is the way I read it. I still do. Others as well. How are you people changing that? Nothing you've added is new to the discussion that Souljourner hasn't already said. Post count inflation?

Xavim: To claim SU effects aren't magical is laughable. And, yes, they are subject to antimagic. If your going to come in to a discussion to school someone, I advise you to first learn the curriculum. Especially when you toss around flagrant arrogance using statements like, "I think I can safely say that this closes the deal." Gaul.

Besides that, my point about dispellability was in relation to melkoriii's comparison of reincarnate to polymorph. Last time I checked, those were both spells.

Zaruthustran: If you'd bother to go back and read my posts, you'd see I was the one that brought up the fact that original size is not factored into a druid's Wildshape options. Where are you going with this? Are you trying to reiterate what I already said or something?

You claim it's not broken. I beg to differ. Did you actually look at the numbers, or are you just interested in proving me wrong so you can continue to play a broken druid?

Take a 9th level druid and Wildshape him into a Dire Ape and animal growth him into Huge with DR 10/magic and the save bonuses. Tell me that isn't inappropriately sick...

Don't just say it can't be that bad. Actually look at it.

---

I'm sorry folks if this seems like I'm getting a little defensive. But you people all come rushing in here effectively after the discussion has wound down and start ganging up and making undefendable claims. What's that about? Especially when some of it is patently BS or guess work. Really, I don’t mind other opinions. But don’t jump in here claiming you “know” the answer to a fuzzy question. Even Souljourner admits it isn’t completely clear. What do you know that we don’t?

Learn the curriculum? I read the spell before I posted and I strongly suggest you go take a look at the SRD. Nowhere in the spell ANTI-Magic field does it ever say that it negates supernatural abilities. It says spells and magical effects, whereas in 3.0 it was explicitly clear that anti-magic cancels supernatural effects. I took this to heart that we were discussing 3.5 here, but if we aren't, then you are right that supernatural abilities are negated. Otherwise you are ignoring the rules that were written up to allow this sort of thing.

Supernatural abilities are not magical because they cannot be dispelled nor are they effect by anti-magic and thus, stack with magic.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Xavim - that's wrong.

While the spell Anti-magic field is unclear on this point - the general description for Supernatural Abilities is not.

This is all part of 3.5's attempt to make you look things up in a bunch of places every time you want any piece of information.

If you look at the description of the three ability types, you will notice the following:

Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field).

It's clear - it's just not where you would normally be expected to look for such information.

-Frank

 

[Xavim]

Well boy is my face red!

Guess I'm just used to the whole if a spell doesn't say it does something then it doesn't thing. Thanks for the heads up.

But then to attack this from another angle.
You are saying that the magical effect of the Wildshape counts as increasing the character's size. Thus Animal Growth doesn't work. Following this logic, the wildshaped Druid would thereby become immune to any magical effect that alters his size. Thus he is immune to further polymorphing, say by an enemy wizard unless that polymorphing makes him smaller. Thus a wizard trying to save himself from being devoured would find that he is unable to turn this large bear into say a huge shark to leave him floundering on the ground suffocating and being crushed by his own weight. Since 2 magical effects that change size do not stack. The same would go for his animal growthed companions.

Or even better, a fighter with enlarge person cast on him becomes immune to polymorph in the same way since no magic that changes his size can effect him. If we allow the polymorphs to work, then Animal Growth must aswell.

 

[Camarath]

Learn the curriculum? I read the spell before I posted and I strongly suggest you go take a look at the SRD. Nowhere in the spell ANTI-Magic field does it ever say that it negates supernatural abilities. It says spells and magical effects, whereas in 3.0 it was explicitly clear that anti-magic cancels supernatural effects. I took this to heart that we were discussing 3.5 here, but if we aren't, then you are right that supernatural abilities are negated. Otherwise you are ignoring the rules that were written up to allow this sort of thing.

The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

This sentence seemed rather clear to me.

 

[Xavim]

This sentence seemed rather clear to me.

Holy crap what the hell was I on!! I owe you an apology. Sorry about that! happens I guess. I still feel that they should stack due to the often mentioned form altering point though.

and here I thought I'd worked it out... sigh...

 

[Dreeble]

Heya:

Possibly irrelevant: If one believes that wildshaping to a larger form and animal growth don't stack, then how about wildshaping to a larger form and then doing so again? Would that "stack"? For example, a halfling druid wildshapes to a medium-sized form. A few rounds later he wants to wildshape to a large-sized form. Can he?

[Note: My vote is obviously yes. Just trying to add a potentially clarifying point.]

Take care,
Dreeble

 

[Oni]

According to the 3.5 SRD wildshape is a super natural ability, not a magical effect (and therefore not subject to anti-magic and cannot be dispelled). And since two different sources giving the same benefit stack, the Druid is free to alter their size through their new spell.
eg. inherent bonus + enhancement bonus.

Just want to point out while dispel magic cannot affect a supernatural ability, Anti-magic field specifically list that it stops supernatural abilities from working.

 

[Xavim]

Just want to point out while dispel magic cannot affect a supernatural ability, Anti-magic field specifically list that it stops supernatural abilities from working.

Umm yeah, I was corrected a few posts ago. Little slow on the draw there Oni.

 

[Power_Munchkin]

hm

Wow, this thread is still around.

I'm unclear on this whole "sets your size, abilities, whatever" argument.

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. Let's examine that statement.

1. Magical.

Wildshape is magical because it doesn't work where magic doesn't function.

2. Increase size.

What does that mean? Is your current form bigger than your previous form? If yes, then your size has increased. How is this not an increase in size?

So we now have a "magical increase" in size.

3. For something to "stack" both effects have to be present at the same time. Otherwise you have nothing to stack.

The argument is whether or not animal growth makes a druid wildshaped into a large animal even bigger. Both effects must be working at the same time for this to become an issue.

The reincarnation argument doesn't hold. While the reincarnate spell certainly could increase the size of the creature though magical means, the end effect is NOT magical (the new body functions in the antimagic field just fine). Does that mean that animal-growthed dead druids can not be reincarnated into a larger form? No, because a dead creature reverts to it's normal shape, as per the polymorph spell.

The druid does not get an enlargement bonus to size, but to his abilities.

As far as huge druids being broken, well, the grappling bonuses ARE hideous. The reason I started the thread was because I was min-maxing two super grappler concepts, one a cleric and the other a druid.

The 12th level cleric comes out (barely) on top against a whildeshaped druid, all things being equal, only if he's got 7 hospitailer levels and gloves of fearsome grip (imp. grapple, str 14 or 16, belt +6, and righteous might vs imp. grapple, animal growth, bull's str., and wildshape) If the druid is huge, he beats the cleric without any overpowered splat material.

A 12th level druid with improved grapple, wildshaped into a dire bear, and animal growthed to huge size would have a grapple bonus of +35. That's enough to outwrestle a pit fiend 50% of the time.

Grapple. Pin. Ready an action to beat the snot out of your victim if you suspect he/she/it could cast spells. The rest of the party can deal with little guys, or just pounce on whatever it is you're pinning.

 

[Caliban]

Wow, this thread is still around.

I'm unclear on this whole "sets your size, abilities, whatever" argument.

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. Let's examine that statement.

[/b]

You mean "Let's restate my original arguement all over again and ignore everything everyone else has said."

Sure, go ahead.

1. Magical.

Wildshape is magical because it doesn't work where magic doesn't function.

I don't think anyone is argueing this.

2. Increase size.

What does that mean? Is your current form bigger than your previous form? If yes, then your size has increased. How is this not an increase in size?

So we now have a "magical increase" in size.

Bzzz... Wrong.

You can have two different spells give a similar effect without being identical.

Wildshape is a shape altering magic, not size altering magic. The change in size is a side effect, not the purpose of the spell.

3. For something to "stack" both effects have to be present at the same time. Otherwise you have nothing to stack.

And they have to be different types of bonuses to stack.

Wildshape and Animal Growth can achieve the same general effect, but they do it through different ways. Thus, they would stack.

Just like the strength bonus from Bull Strength stacks with the strength bonus from Enlarge Person, and the strength bonus from Divine Power stacks with the strength bonus from Righteous Might.

Wildshape is not a "Size Altering Effect". It changes you into a creature that happens to be a certain size. If you kept the same shape but increased in size, then it would be size altering magic.

But since you obviously aren't going to listen to anything anyone here says, please e-mail the Sage or Andy Collins, or whatever official source that you will listen to (except WOTC Customer service, they don't count).