Wildshape + Animal Growth =/= huge size
- Thread starter Power_Munchkin
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Power_Munchkin
First Post
hm
That said, animal growth has a "size increases through magic do not stack" clause that in my opinion prohibits increasing druid's size further.
It's a very simple binary question - is it magical - yes. Does it increase size - yes. Then the two won't stack.
The "purpose" of the spell is whatever the user wants it to do. One wizard could use fireball to blow up creatures, while another one could use it to burn dry leaves cluttering his yard.
The "effect" of animal growth is to increase size. The "effect" of wildshape is to change into an animal. When the animal is size large, it conflicts with animal growth "no stacking" clause and the animal stays large.
Nothing prevents a medium-sized druid from wildshaping into a medium-sized dog and then animal growing himself to a large-sized dog.
Wildshape does not provide a named bonus to size. Animal growth does not provide a bonus to size. In fact, they don't mention any bonuses to size at all. Does sprited charge stack with a critical hit? There is nothing to stack - the two multiply things, they don't provide bonuses.
You argue that this is a "side effect" of becoming a different-sized creature. So what? It could be a side, top, or down effect, but your size has *increased magically* and that's what matters. In my opinion size change is the primary effect because it helps grappling which is what I intend to use it for.
I'm not talking about size altering magic in terms of flavor. I'm talking about size altering magic in terms of rules. If a creature is one size and then through the use of a continuous magic effect becomes another (whether it grows while retaining the same shape, changing into another creature, or simply inhaling a whole lot of air and bouncing around like a beach ball), it chages size.
That said, I hope you're right. Hey, if designers think that huge druids with improved grab and +35 grappling modifiers at 12th level are balanced, I won't complain. I intend to play one.
And what does this have to do with this discussion? I'm not arguing that wildshape and animal growth are identical. They're clearly not.
That said, animal growth has a "size increases through magic do not stack" clause that in my opinion prohibits increasing druid's size further.
How does this matter?
It's a very simple binary question - is it magical - yes. Does it increase size - yes. Then the two won't stack.
The "purpose" of the spell is whatever the user wants it to do. One wizard could use fireball to blow up creatures, while another one could use it to burn dry leaves cluttering his yard.
The "effect" of animal growth is to increase size. The "effect" of wildshape is to change into an animal. When the animal is size large, it conflicts with animal growth "no stacking" clause and the animal stays large.
Nothing prevents a medium-sized druid from wildshaping into a medium-sized dog and then animal growing himself to a large-sized dog.
If a spell says that the target is imbued with strength of a bull while another spell says target is consumed with strength-boosting rage, the two spells won't stack if they provide the same bonuses, even though they achieve said bonuses in completely different ways (one is transmutation while the other is mind-affecting for example).
Wildshape does not provide a named bonus to size. Animal growth does not provide a bonus to size. In fact, they don't mention any bonuses to size at all. Does sprited charge stack with a critical hit? There is nothing to stack - the two multiply things, they don't provide bonuses.
Again - what does this have to do with anything? Neither wildshape, nor animal growth provide bonuses to size of any kind.
Has your sized chaged? If yes, then it's is a size altering effect. It doesn't get any more basic than this.
You argue that this is a "side effect" of becoming a different-sized creature. So what? It could be a side, top, or down effect, but your size has *increased magically* and that's what matters. In my opinion size change is the primary effect because it helps grappling which is what I intend to use it for.
Why does shape matter?
I'm not talking about size altering magic in terms of flavor. I'm talking about size altering magic in terms of rules. If a creature is one size and then through the use of a continuous magic effect becomes another (whether it grows while retaining the same shape, changing into another creature, or simply inhaling a whole lot of air and bouncing around like a beach ball), it chages size.
That said, I hope you're right. Hey, if designers think that huge druids with improved grab and +35 grappling modifiers at 12th level are balanced, I won't complain. I intend to play one.
Last edited:
FrankTrollman
First Post
OK, a size increasing magic makes you bigger. That's all of you - your hair is bigger, your hands are bigger - and most importantly your equipment is bigger.
Shape altering magic doesn't do that.
So when you turn into a bear - your equipment doesn't resize or reshape to bear proportions. It either sits on you or melds into your new form. When you magically grow - your sword gets bigger along with you.
You can turn into whatever you want with transformation spells - repeatedly if need be. But you can only have your whole self with clothes and all grow once.
That's the difference. So when you magically go into a new form with Reincarnation you can follow that up with a Wildshape or an Enlarge Person - or whatever. But you can't follow up Giant Size with Enlarge Person.
It's not any more complicated than that.
-Frank
Shape altering magic doesn't do that.
So when you turn into a bear - your equipment doesn't resize or reshape to bear proportions. It either sits on you or melds into your new form. When you magically grow - your sword gets bigger along with you.
You can turn into whatever you want with transformation spells - repeatedly if need be. But you can only have your whole self with clothes and all grow once.
That's the difference. So when you magically go into a new form with Reincarnation you can follow that up with a Wildshape or an Enlarge Person - or whatever. But you can't follow up Giant Size with Enlarge Person.
It's not any more complicated than that.
-Frank
Camarath
Pale Master Tarrasque
Actualy I view this issue the same as the question "what kind of stat bonus does polymorph give?". To which I believe the answer is that it does not give a bonus it replaces your base ability scores for the duration of the spell. This applied to size alteration means that when polymorphed your base size is the size of the creature you polymorphed into. This makes your orginal size before being polymorphed irrelevant for the duration of the polymorph spell.Power_Munchkin said:
The Souljourner
First Post
Power_Munchkin, you're just wrong, I'm sorry. Frank gave a good example of the difference between size altering magic and shape altering magic as it pertains to your equipment.
The rule about size altering magics not stacking was intended to prevent things like righteous might and enlarge person from making you and your equipment huge. This seems clear to everyone but you.
I am done with this thread. There are only two very basic arguments in here, and they have been repeated ad nauseum.
-The Souljourner
The rule about size altering magics not stacking was intended to prevent things like righteous might and enlarge person from making you and your equipment huge. This seems clear to everyone but you.
I am done with this thread. There are only two very basic arguments in here, and they have been repeated ad nauseum.
-The Souljourner
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