Wildshape Elemental - Recent article

Vlos

First Post
Ok, this is inregards to the recent article about Polymorphing.

It states a Druid does not gain the Elemental TYPE when they change into an Elemental. Does this mean they also do not gain sub-Type?

So since the Druid cannot gain the Elementals Type the druid now requires to breath. Alot of good a Earth Elemental does if it can't breath under ground, or a Water elemental is if it can't breath under water.

Also if you don't get the Sub-Type (which would seem logical because you don't get the parent type), what good would a Fire Elemental be if it isn't Immune to fire?
 

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Vlos said:
Ok, this is inregards to the recent article about Polymorphing.

It states a Druid does not gain the Elemental TYPE when they change into an Elemental. Does this mean they also do not gain sub-Type?

So since the Druid cannot gain the Elementals Type the druid now requires to breath. Alot of good a Earth Elemental does if it can't breath under ground, or a Water elemental is if it can't breath under water.

Also if you don't get the Sub-Type (which would seem logical because you don't get the parent type), what good would a Fire Elemental be if it isn't Immune to fire?

A fire elemental gets "immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold" as a special quality, not just because it's a "Medium Elemental (Fire, Extraplanar)" or whatever. I think.

You get the body of whatever you turn into. Your special qualities are defined by that, the game mechanics are just a way of representing that. An earth elemental doesn't have lungs, so I would rule it doesn't need to breathe. Common sense it out and don't worry so much.
 

DanMcS said:
A fire elemental gets "immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold" as a special quality, not just because it's a "Medium Elemental (Fire, Extraplanar)" or whatever. I think.

You get the body of whatever you turn into. Your special qualities are defined by that, the game mechanics are just a way of representing that. An earth elemental doesn't have lungs, so I would rule it doesn't need to breathe. Common sense it out and don't worry so much.

Unfortunately common sense has absolutely nothing to do with the new polymorph (& wild shape) rules. If anything, the rules seem to run contrary to "common sense." Moreover, the polymorph article explicitly lists "Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe" as a natural ability gained gained because of type -- which, according to the wild shape summary, you do NOT get. Actually, according to the article, this shouldn't be a problem as you can't move through the ground anyway. The article describes the ability to "burrow through solid rock" as one gained through the earth subtype -- which you don't get with wild shape.

Just as the "immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold" is due to the "fire subtype" -- which you would not gain with wild shape.
 
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You're missing my point, probably intentionally. If you think a fire elemental, even a druid turned into one, would have those, then do it. The Hasbro/Wizards D&D police are not going to kick in your door.
 

DanMcS said:
You're missing my point, probably intentionally. If you think a fire elemental, even a druid turned into one, would have those, then do it. The Hasbro/Wizards D&D police are not going to kick in your door.

I'm actually not trying to be contrary. I'd just go a step further and say to completely ignore the "revised" rules for wild shape, polymorph, alter self, etc. Use your own judgement, as that of WOTC seems to be seriously impaired regarding this subject.
 

Considering that it's what, a 16th level ability for Druids? Give them the elemental type. I can think of no valid reason for not doing so, and the mind boggles how a druid wildshaped into an elemental can have the elementals supernatural abilities but his own organs so he can be sneak attacked. Yeah, right.

I liked the polymorph article up to this point, but his idea for druids elemental wildshape diverges so strongly from everything else that has gone before it in his four part article that I'll ignore his druid pronouncements.

(I'm only surprised that its taken so long for someone to start a thread about it!)

Cheers
 

The problem with all of the "polymorph" ruling is that it tries to put a general ruling template over every possible choice. That's just not possible; there are just way too many clever people around for that even to be considered possible.

Even so...I'd always hoped, with 3.5e, that they'd get it right. (sigh)
 


Sneak attacks

Which part of the fire (or water, or earth, or AIR!!) does the rogue target in order to sneak attack an elemental?!?

Craziness.
 

While I understand that there's some common sense lacking from the new Polymorph rules in 3.5, the bottom line is that those who don't apply common sense in the absence of its written form are those who are slaves to the letter of the law, and those who have no real concept of the spirit of the law. This is what's most important, at least to me, as both a player and a Dungeon Master. What does the spell description specifically say vs. what was the likely intent of the designers?

Monte Cook, in his preview of 3.5, confirmed a lot of the things I suspected as it pertained to the 3.0 books and why some of the spells and other things were written the way they were, so I'm reasonably pleased that my rulings as a Dungeon Master on the side of "likely intent" from the designers lined up, generally speaking, with the intent of at least one of those designers.

You might perhaps not gain the elemental subtype by the letter of the rules, but it seems most likely to me that in wildshaping into an elemental, and gaining all its extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities, the only thing you'd be lacking is type, and as others have noted, it just makes no sense for an earth elemental to have the internal organs of a PHB race Druid (or any other mortal race, for that matter), and thus be vulnerable to things like a Rogue's Sneak Attack, critical hits, etc. If you wildshape into an animal, then you have the animal's type. It references, for rules consistency, the Polymorph spell for the wildshaping ability; at 16th level and above, a Druid can wildshape into an elemental, and since it uses the term "wildshape", it must then conform to all rulings of regular wildshaping, with the exceptions noted in the specific ability description (i.e., the separate usage-tracking for elemental wildshaping, the acquisition of spell-like abilities of an elemental, etc.). In other words, if a Druid is wildshaping into an elemental, then by the nature of wildshape, which references Polymorph, which references Alter Self, you gain the type of the creature whose form you're taking.

Does anyone for an instant think that a Druid using the "Dragon Wildshape" feat from the Draconomicon doesn't gain the dragon type when they shift? Some things you just have to apply common sense to, and throw rules lawyers who are whining to the contrary (likely just because they didn't think of it first, and don't want it used against them) out the door.

When in doubt, err on the side of fun.
 

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