Will all spells be attacks?

[Rechan]

It's simply a redefining of the limitations of magic. Which might be a problem for some people as the limitation in previous editions was "none".

Not true. I noticed that the durations of spells got shorter and shorter as 3e went onwards.

And it offends me that my argument is getting lumped into "Wizards should get to pwn everyone". Yeah, liking creative options and non-combat uses for magic = just wanting to outshine everyone at the table.

 

[Rechan]

Seeing as we haven't seen anything resembling a full list of spells and or rituals it's a little too early to condemn WoTC for lacking in that department.

No, I'm condemn the people that say those spells shouldn't be there in the first place.

That said - most of the spells you listed would be perfect as rituals with an approx 10 min casting time (especially the divinations which we know will likely be rituals).

I think that "Animate rope" or unseen servant et al are just not appropriate as 10 minute minimum rituals, especially when those can save your bacon in tight spots.

Erase/illusionary script/blank page are those spells that can make or break an espionage situation, where you need to use them immediately. You can't exactly say "Hey you guards, can you wait 30 minutes while I cast these loud rituals in the badguy's study that I snuck into?"

 

[Mort]

I can think of quite a few.

Considering that D&D is "The Most Popular RPG"(tm), I would think it should be able to facilitate more than "Fight Porn". RPGs are more than just killing things, so the gateway RPG should be able to handle more than doing damage to things for XP.

And D&D can, who's arguing otherwise. An adventure itsef is/can be much more than fighting. It's exploration, investigation, interaction, negotiation and many other things. But when PC's are involved in one they are not their professions (be they baker, soldier, aristocrat) but fellow adventurers attempting to find the resolution.

In a sense being an adventurer is self defining - because, well, they go on adventures.

 

[Rechan]

And D&D can, who's arguing otherwise. An adventure itsef is/can be much more than fighting. It's exploration, investigation, interaction, negotiation and many other things. But when PC's are involved in one they are not their professions (be they baker, soldier, aristocrat) but fellow adventurers attempting to find the resolution. .

So when their profession requires it they're not their profession? Aristocrats doing negotiations aren't negotiating aristocrats, they're adventurers?

That doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially how they're Above and Beyond when they're just doing their job.

 

[Mort]

No, I'm condemn the people that say those spells shouldn't be there in the first place.


I think that "Animate rope" or unseen servant et al are just not appropriate as 10 minute minimum rituals, especially when those can save your bacon in tight spots.

Erase/illusionary script/blank page are those spells that can make or break an espionage situation, where you need to use them immediately. You can't exactly say "Hey you guards, can you wait 30 minutes while I cast these loud rituals in the badguy's study that I snuck into?"

I'm actually fine with all those as rituals and longer casting times. I'm sick and tired of the 6 second solution to every problem.

Your above situation, for example, means the rogue actually has something to do as opposed to saying "let the mage do it, he's better at it anyway."

 

[Felon]

I can think of quite a few.

Considering that D&D is "The Most Popular RPG"(tm), I would think it should be able to facilitate more than "Fight Porn". RPGs are more than just killing things, so the gateway RPG should be able to handle more than doing damage to things for XP.

I think WotC staff have said plenty of times that they don't see D&D as being a metasystem that emphasizes flexibility in creating a setting that will suit anyone. There is a very strong implied setting, and it entails adventurers killing things and taking their stuff.

And if it's the gateway RPG, then maybe it should be that simple. Folks who get more ambitious desires can graduate to a more evolved game.

 

[Rechan]

I'm actually fine with all those as rituals and longer casting times. I'm sick and tired of the 6 second solution to every problem.

And I'm not. Therefore, the existance of this discussion.

Your above situation, for example, means the rogue actually has something to do as opposed to saying "let the mage do it, he's better at it anyway."

So explain to me how a rogue is supposed to hide a page within a page? Or make a page unable to be seen by someone who looks at it?

When I play a futuristic game, I never hear complaints about how technology is overused and overshadowing everyone's skills.

 

[Rechan]

There is a very strong implied setting

The setting is only implied as far as the books. You aren't required to use it. Nor do I believe the WotC people expect the majority to use it. Because they have said they recognize and like the will of gamers to make their own settings; that's one of the hallmarks of D&D.

 

[Stoat]

Obviously, we won't know for absolute certain until the books are out, but all indications are that the 4E Wizard primarily specializes in damage dealing area attacks and battlefield control spells. The previews mentioned above, however, show that the wizard has access to certain short-duration utility spells (invisibility, mirror image, fly), although the nature of those spells may be surprisingly different from previous editions.

No. Magic is supposed to be able to bend reality, but it seems to be regulated to just blowing up. What happened to making floating castles? Creating monsters (Owlbear, etc) and other Wizardly Experiments? Magic allows for creative uses, especially when creating a campaign world.

I'd note that previous editions didn't have a lot of spells useful for making floating castles, creating monsters or conducting "wizardly experiments." Such things were usually the province of DM handwaving. I'd expect that to stay the same in 4E.

On the other, if there is Ye Stereotypical Wizard School and only three members there are/will be PCs, what are the others exactly doing? And, does this mean that they just Cast Magic Differently, or just don't have all the boom that the PCs do?

The NPC's at the Wizard School have whatever statistics the DM wants and do whatever the DM wants. This is not a smartass answer. In 3E a Professor of Alchemy at the Arcane Collegeum would probably be a Wizard with certain skills, feats and (possibly) thematic spells. In 4E, the Professor of Alchemy simply is, and has no underlying class. The DM simply assigns whatever stats or abilities seem appropriate. The Alchemist may not cast spells at all.

Does this mean that Phantom steed/rope trick/animate rope are rituals too? Given that light/mage hand/ghost sound aren't, and they aren't exactly Combat spells.

Hell. Where are our non-attack battlefield control spells? Fog cloud/Obscuring Mist/Grease/etc?

Short answer: we don't know. An informed guess is that some non-attack battlefield control spells will appear in 4E. Other utility spells may be in (I think Phantom Steed is confirmed). IMO Rope Trick should be a ritual if it's in the game at all.

 

[JohnSnow]

How about where's Erase? Unseen Servant? Alarm? Tenser's Floating Disk? Magical Aura? Animate rope? Magic Mouth? Rope Trick? Spider Climb? Pyrotechnics? Tiny hut? Illusionary Script? Secret Page? Shrink Item? Secure Shelter? Arcane Eye? Just to name a few.

Divinations = Ritual
Magic Mouth = Ritual
Magical Aura is, quite honestly, just silly. If it exists at all, it should be a low-level ritual, because it's absolutely useless in combat. Pyrotechnics, for all of its additional benefits, is probably an attack power, but might be utility magic.

Spider Climb is, I'm sure, a utility power (probably level 4-ish). Similarly, the non-absurdist application of rope trick (a magic rope you can climb) probably is as well. The absurdist application of rope trick (extra-dimensional stronghold) ought to be a ritual, because it's a potent long-term safehold. Which puts it in the same category as the two next two spells.

For what they do, Tiny Hut and Secure Shelter should have always been rituals. Similarly, anything that has a casting time of more than 1 minute should probably fall into that category as well. As for Floating Disc, wasn't it listed somewhere? My guess is that it's probably a level 2 or 4 utility power.

Frankly, I think the wizard gets the class feature of "Cantrips" to allow 1st-level wizards to have utility powers. Erase, if it exists at all, is probably a cantrip. IMO, it's barely worthy of being called a "spell." It's more like an application of prestidigitation (which may actually be covered by the Arcana skill). Hopefully, that'll cover things like "mending" too. Although if it's broad enough, it might be worthy of being a Level 2 utility power.