Will all spells be attacks?

[Felon]

Could you elaborate? I played a lot of 2E, and I don't remember any rules/spells that would let a wizard create a flying castle or breed an owlbear. Flying castles existed, certainly, and owlbears were described as the result of a mad wizard's experiment, but I don't recall anything other than DM fiat being available to explain them.

The Epic-Level Handbook had a spell that allowed you to create levitating real estate.

 

[JohnSnow]

Because there isn't an obvoius, available and easy magic solution.
It's not obvious because it requires some serious thinking-outside-the-box

Sorry Rechan, I don't mean to be snide, but did you even pay attention to the characters released at D&D Experience?

Even at 1st-level, Skamos (the Tiefling Wizard) had two extremely versatile powers, in the form of cantrips - Ghost Sound and Mage Hand.

Ghost Sound Wizard Cantrip
At Will • Arcane, Illusion
With a wink, you create an illusory sound that emanates from somewhere close by.
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One object or unoccupied square
Effect: You cause a sound as quiet as a whisper or as loud as a yelling or fighting creature to emanate from the target. You can produce nonvocal sounds such as the ringing of a sword blow, jingling armor, or scraping stone. If you whisper, you can whisper quietly enough that only creatures adjacent to the target can hear your words.

That's old ghost sound combined with the ability to whisper a message to someone across a battlefield. And if you can't come up with creative uses for that power, you're nuts.

And if that's not enough for you, there's this one:

Mage Hand Wizard Cantrip
At Will • Arcane, Conjuration, Force
You gesture toward an object nearby, and a spectral floating hand lifts the object into the air and moves it where you wish.
Minor Action Ranged 5
Effect: You conjure a spectral floating hand in an unoccupide square within range. The hand picks up, moves, or manipulates an adjacent object weighing 20 pounds or less, and carries it up to 5 squares. If you are holding the object when you use this power, the hand can move the object into a pack, a sheath, or a similar container, and simultaneously move any one object carried or worn anywhere on your body into your hand.
As a move action, you can move the object up to 5 squares. As a free action, you can cause the hand to drop an object it is holding, and as a minor action, you can cause the hand to pick up or manipulate a different object.
Sustain Minor: You can sustain the hand indefinitely.
Special: You can create only one hand at a time.

I can, off the top of my head, think of dozens of uses for this simple cantrip. One of which is basically the equivalent of animate rope. Yes, it only has a range of 5 squares, but for god's sake, it's a super low-level cantrip.

And I imagine that there are more cantrips in the game than just the three mentioned on Skamos' character sheet.

 

[Rechan]

Sorry Rechan, I don't mean to be snide, but did you even pay attention to the characters released at D&D Experience?

Yes, I read them front to back many times, since I'm going to a 4e demo tomorrow.

 

[Rechan]

An implied setting isn't just about a pantheon or the names of fictitious historical figures. It includes all of the things we're talking about here: magic spells create short-term, close-range effects, magic rituals create long-term or far-reaching ones.

I don't think those imply a setting at all, really. There's always been short/instant vs. long term, etc etc.

 

[Mort]

I'm going to put it to you this way:

Magic overshadowing everyone happens because you have two people playing two different classes completely who want to do the same thing.

More precisely it's a problem because the mage can so easily do it.

More importantly, the problem of magic overshadowing the other guy is because the wizard, in previous editions, could say "Today I'm going to overshadow the Rogue, tomorrow, the Fighter, the next day, the Psion, the following day, Somebody Else."

Me, I think it's a real rude move to horn in on someone else's territory when they build their character around that. It's rude for the wizard to decide to do the rogue's job for him.

Rude or not the fact that it can so easily be done is a problem.

But when the rogue's player has built his rogue to do something else, like running jumping tumbling swashbuckly finesse fighting, and not trap setting and espionage, the wizard doing that isn't overshadowing.

When you actively have to think of a role that the "mage can't do" the mage can do to many things.

I will tell you right now, I love MacGuyvers. People using little tricks to get real clever effects. Tactics and planning way ahead of time and the plan all comes together. To me, it doesn't matter if my guy uses move silently + hide and the Disguise skill, or magic to do recon and the site's floor plans, then sneak in and infiltrate the enemy's fortress, and set up a distraction. It doesn't matter to me if my guy is using completely mundane tools, technology, psionics, mundane+magical tools, or purely magical, what matters is that that's the niche that really excites me, and what I am hearing is that "You shouldn't be able to do it with this, only that".

No the problem is not that there are different ways to do things - the problem is that the 3.5 mage could do the sneaky, MacGuyver stuff and still do a whole host of other things comepletly unrelated to it. In otherwords they had way to broad coverage - no nonspellcasting class could hope to cover the amount of stuff a spellcasting class could do. This is an inherent imbalance.

It would really anger me if I built my character to do this and someone stepped in, snapped their fingers and made ti happen, and hadn't put the effort into it that I did. But that's not what I'm suggesting.

Wouldn't it anger you even more if they could do that - and then the next day step on someone else's toes that did a schtick unrelated to you - and then after that do a schtick neither of you could?

Or in other words, what you are saying to me sounds like "The Swordmage is horning in on the Fighter because the Swordmage is using Magic to do what the Fighter does". They are both defenders.

Not exactly no. The above wouldn't be a problem - just 2 characters using different flavored things to accomplish the same goals.

The problem comes from 1 character being just as effective as another at that characters schtick and being able to do lots more besides. For example my character in our last campaign was a fighter/mage/knight phantom (Ebberon fighter/mage prestige class). I was just as effective in a fight as the straight fighter - but I also had great battlefield control, great movement and ridiculous utility in and out of combat. It simply wasn't fair to the guy who chose the fighter.

4e seems to be taking strides to correct these inequalities and I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Rechan]

I have yet to see a DM that doesn't allow scrolls. the wizard pens the scroll when he has time and is free to use his valuable spell slots for something else. I played a mage in a campaign - it's too easy to have any spell you need available at relatively little cost - if you put any thought into it at all.


Because of the explosion of spells and most DM's willingness to let them in wizards have a broad access to anything they need. So lots of tricks and lots of options I don't think the situations are as narrow as you are saying.

I don't disagree.

I just do not see that as a problem of the wizard having access to spells that do that, but that wizards have access to all spells at any time.

More importantly the wizard can prepare for a wide variety of situations - if he knows what's coming you simply cannot catch him flat footed - even if he doesn't he can still have a very wide variety of tricks through wands, scrolls and spells.

In my experience, memorizing spells to anticipate situation X means those situations never coming up.

For instance:

Cleric: We are going into the Swamp of Dreaded Fangy Things. There are many poisonous creatures and diseases in the swamp, along with undead. I shall memorize some spells to handle poison and status effects.
DM: In The Swamp of Dreaded Fangy Things, you end up fighting... LIZARDFOLK AND TROLLS.
Cleric: *#&@!

 

[Rechan]

More precisely it's a problem because the mage can so easily do it.

Rude or not the fact that it can so easily be done is a problem.

When you actively have to think of a role that the "mage can't do" the mage can do to many things.



No the problem is not that there are different ways to do things - the problem is that the 3.5 mage could do the sneaky, MacGuyver stuff and still do a whole host of other things comepletly unrelated to it. In otherwords they had way to broad coverage - no nonspellcasting class could hope to cover the amount of stuff a spellcasting class could do. This is an inherent imbalance.

Are you intentionally ignoring the content of my posts?

Let me spell it out for you:

I do not disagree with you at all that wizards are capable of doing everything every day and have access to all the things forever and ever and it makes people feel bad and that's not good.

That is not what I am encouraging or saying should stay.

I have repeatedly acknowledged your points and said that yes, I recognize that is the problem.

Now could you please at least respond to what I am actually saying, and not the point you are trying to make: wizards are unfair because they can do EVERYTHING at the same time?

 

[Teemu]

Yes. I know. I'm not saying that 3e is perfect by a long shot.

But I see 4e is worse in this regard.

I gotta chime in and point out that 4e looks like it's going to handle this kind of off-scene noncombat magic better than 3e. I don't see why you couldn't have a high-level ritual that charmed a group of ogres to build you a castle, Charm Ogres To Build A Castle.

 

[DandD]

So the Cleric simply spontaneously converts all those anti-disease-and-poison spells into cure spells. Big deal. Besides, Heal and Restoration are always good spells, so no need to waste spell slots on worthless bunk like Cure Poison and Cure Disease. Heck, it gets even easier if there's a Paladin in your group, as he got that for free.
Yeah, Clerics ain't a good example to counter, as in D&D 3.X, they became the better wizards of the group. Especially at higher levels.

 

[Rechan]

So the Cleric simply spontaneously converts all those anti-disease-and-poison spells into cure spells. Big deal.

It's a big deal when those spells cuold've been used for other, more effective spells - which equally could be turned into healing.

The point is planning = crap.

And that sucks when planning = half the fun.