Will CoC d20 be a bridge to classless/levelless D&D?
- Thread starter Pillars of Hercules
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Wolfspider
Explorer
Well, to humans he is a god in terms of his power level. But he is not REALLY a god.
He is an alien, a member of a race (the Starspawn) and the high priest of that race.
Ummm...how can Cthulhu be a high priest if he is a god? Easy...he is the high priest of the other entities in the universe that are so powerful that they make Cthulhu look like an ameoba.
As far as balancing encounters go, I do believe it is important to have an idea if an encounter is too much. How many cultists, for example, are needed to overwhelm a group vs. how many just to provide a challenge. As far as "monsters" in CoC go, they were hardly unstoppable. I remember reading about Mi-Go in one of Lovecraft's stories who died in a flood. They're certainly mortal in that respect.
Of course, when you start getting to the level of Great Old One's like Cthulhu, there is no reason to try to balance out a party. They're just screwed.
He is an alien, a member of a race (the Starspawn) and the high priest of that race.
Ummm...how can Cthulhu be a high priest if he is a god? Easy...he is the high priest of the other entities in the universe that are so powerful that they make Cthulhu look like an ameoba.
As far as balancing encounters go, I do believe it is important to have an idea if an encounter is too much. How many cultists, for example, are needed to overwhelm a group vs. how many just to provide a challenge. As far as "monsters" in CoC go, they were hardly unstoppable. I remember reading about Mi-Go in one of Lovecraft's stories who died in a flood. They're certainly mortal in that respect.
Of course, when you start getting to the level of Great Old One's like Cthulhu, there is no reason to try to balance out a party. They're just screwed.
Desdichado
Hero
I don't think it'll be too much of a problem. The same thing that causes you to gain XP and go up in levels also causes you to lose sanity points, so I doubt the levelling will get out of hand.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
First, let me say that I'm a huge Lovecraft fan, and his way of evoking an atmosphere of utter hopelessness and dread is the main reason I like his stuff. That said...
Why should Cthulhu & Co. be completely unbeatable? Think about it like this: somebody beat them at least once. Sure, they were alien and alleged to be gods also, but let's remember that we see all of Lovecraft's stories from the perspective of normal people.
D&D characters are not normal people.
Now, with Deities & Demigods about to be released, and the Epic Level Handbook coming, we may well see characters that have a chance against the Big C.
Yeah, I know it's sacrilege to suggest such a thing, but it is a game, after all. If I'm playing a regular Cthulhu game, I'd fully realize that the characters would not even be a nuisance to Cthulhu, let alone a threat. But most Lovecraftian characters are the equivalent of D&D Commoners and Experts, and fairly low-level ones at that.
I always look at fictional and game "gods" as being simply high-powered beings, no more, no less. Cthulhu and Co. are so much more powerful than anything in the real world that, if they existed, they probably would be looked at as "gods." But in a D&D world, at the very least they would be rivaled by other "gods," like Iuz or Hercules or whoever. I think what made me look at it like this was the "Elric" series by Michael Moorcock, and the Norse pantheon, who were almost all killed in battle by giants (of "godlike" power themselves). So, while Cthulhu and his crew would be undefeatable in a game world much like our own, the odds would be a little less overwhelming in a D&D world.
That doesn't mean even an Epic level character would stand a good chance of taking out one of these guys (well, we'll have to wait for the Epic Level book to know for sure), but maybe some Avatars and really high level Epic level characters could stand a chance.
But, that's just me. If you don't like the idea of anyone standing up to Cthulhu - and I really do understand why you would feel that way, since I'm a fan of HPL also - then don't allow it to happen in your campaign. Make Cthulhu and the rest either completely unassailable, or so powerful that they might as well be. Or keep D&D characters out of the mix.
Why should Cthulhu & Co. be completely unbeatable? Think about it like this: somebody beat them at least once. Sure, they were alien and alleged to be gods also, but let's remember that we see all of Lovecraft's stories from the perspective of normal people.
D&D characters are not normal people.
Now, with Deities & Demigods about to be released, and the Epic Level Handbook coming, we may well see characters that have a chance against the Big C.
Yeah, I know it's sacrilege to suggest such a thing, but it is a game, after all. If I'm playing a regular Cthulhu game, I'd fully realize that the characters would not even be a nuisance to Cthulhu, let alone a threat. But most Lovecraftian characters are the equivalent of D&D Commoners and Experts, and fairly low-level ones at that.
I always look at fictional and game "gods" as being simply high-powered beings, no more, no less. Cthulhu and Co. are so much more powerful than anything in the real world that, if they existed, they probably would be looked at as "gods." But in a D&D world, at the very least they would be rivaled by other "gods," like Iuz or Hercules or whoever. I think what made me look at it like this was the "Elric" series by Michael Moorcock, and the Norse pantheon, who were almost all killed in battle by giants (of "godlike" power themselves). So, while Cthulhu and his crew would be undefeatable in a game world much like our own, the odds would be a little less overwhelming in a D&D world.
That doesn't mean even an Epic level character would stand a good chance of taking out one of these guys (well, we'll have to wait for the Epic Level book to know for sure), but maybe some Avatars and really high level Epic level characters could stand a chance.
But, that's just me. If you don't like the idea of anyone standing up to Cthulhu - and I really do understand why you would feel that way, since I'm a fan of HPL also - then don't allow it to happen in your campaign. Make Cthulhu and the rest either completely unassailable, or so powerful that they might as well be. Or keep D&D characters out of the mix.
mmadsen said:
Its the same mechanically, but not psychologically. Does it really make sense to say I have a 120% chance of picking an average lock?
I like the concept of DCs much better than % checks, especially becuase when you are playing a game, wanting to roll LOW on skill checks and HIGH on attack rolls and saves just doesn't make intuitive sense.
Zappo
Explorer
Well, CoC is a horror game, you know. That's why I hope that in the d20 version they are still unstoppable. Take that with moderation... I don't mean literally unstoppable, only much, much, much tougher than your average human. With decent firearms, good tactics, and numerical advantage, you can kill many CoC critters, even under Chaosium rules (and you might even survive). You cannot kill the various unique monsters.JohnRTroy said:
Colonel, we are not talking about a D&D/Cthulhu crossover. The epic level and deities and demigods stuff is not supposed to be applied to CoC d20. Any attempt in this direction would be a house rule. As the rule, I think the CoC characters should never even have the faintest idea of a chance against any Great Old One in direct combat. D&D characters, that's another matter entirely, but it's... well, another matter entirely.
To those concerned about levels... don't worry, you know that 90% of the characters won't make it past level 2.
Besides, considering the nature of CoC, it is likely that 20th level characters won't be nearly as powerful in combat as an equivalent D&D character. They'll be like very advanced CoC characters - wise, knowledgeable, talented, and ready to flee at the first sign of a monster.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
JohnRTroy said:
The Lovecraft Universe makes certain unusual assumptions about the metaphysical nature of the cosmos. And Lovecraftian metaphysics just don't mix with what you are used to.
Talking about your beloved D&D character fighting Cthulu makes about as much sense as pitting Bugs Bunny against Batman -- makes for an amusing image for about 7 seconds but there is really no point in following through and arguing over mechanics.
Cthulu in a D&D universe is just another giant bag of hit points that can throw endless mind-affecting magic at you.
D&D characters in a Cthulu universe need to start making Will saves against insanity the moment they start using their own magic items or spells. Having an Enraged Barbarian swinging a magical axe is much more of a liability than an asset.
Oil and water.
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