Will CoC d20 be a bridge to classless/levelless D&D?

[ColonelHardisson]

Colonel, we are not talking about a D&D/Cthulhu crossover. The epic level and deities and demigods stuff is not supposed to be applied to CoC d20. Any attempt in this direction would be a house rule. As the rule, I think the CoC characters should never even have the faintest idea of a chance against any Great Old One in direct combat. D&D characters, that's another matter entirely, but it's... well, another matter entirely.

Well, gee, I just wanted to offer an opinion on the issue, which often ends up discussed when d20 CoC is brought up. The reason I thought it was pertinent in this case was because classes and levels are usually thought of as D&D's trademarks. While classes are not as much a part of d20 CoC as in D&D, we know that levels are, and that there has been playtesting at WotC using D&D characters against Cthulhu (as reported by, IIRC, either Monte Cook or Bruce Cordell - or both. At least, I know that Cordell was one of the guys running such a playtest).

So what do this have to do with this thread? Just this: if they're retaining levels for d20 CoC, it seems unlikely that WotC would end up doing a classless and levelless d20. As mentioned earlier, WotC could do such a thing, but nobody else could, due to the restrictions under the d20 license. Sure, somebody could do it under the OGL, but then it wouldn't be d20 anymore, technically. But if WotC isn't dispensing with levels (or classes either, really) for CoC, then I don't know what they would dispense them for. So, no, ultimately, d20 CoC isn't the bridge to classless/levelless d20. But it could be the bridge to a game done under the OGL which isn't d20 (again, technically) - and that is the matter of this thread entirely. So that's why I brought it up. 'Cause it's probably just a matter of time that we do see a D&D/CoC crossover, because the systems are still compatible enough to allow it (as mentioned, there is a section in the d20 CoC book on this), and it would make money.

See? I tried staying on topic. It just was coming from a different direction.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

You shouldn't be too nervous about the class system in CoC d20. For all I've raad it's quite clear that CoC characters don't gain anywhere near the power of regular d20 characters. They seem to be using an adaption of the VP/WP and Defense Roll system as well and characters will gain very little extra hps as the advance in levels AFAIK. This alone should make CoC d20 games extremely lethal. You'll probably be able to scale monsters up and down just like in regular DnD as well.
I'm rather curious whether or not a damage to specific body parts system will be included in the d20 CoC....

-Zarrock

 

[Aaron L]

I love the idea of epic D&D characters fighting Cthulhu. Thats what being epic is all about. (I just hope Cthulhu is an Aberration, not an Outsider, in his D&D write-up. He's an alien. Now, Nyarlathotep, He's an Outsider. Ooooh, I can't wait for this book.)

 

[LordMelkor{Talos}]

Well, in my opinion, Great Old Ones, of which Cthulhu is the greatest, don`t have power of anything above Demigods, Elder Gods, like Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth, are diffrent matter.

 

[SableWyvern]

If d20 characters can fight Cthulhu and win, then d20 CoC will be something that was inspired by the Cthulhu Mythos - it will not be part of it.

Central to the Mythos is the concept that human sanity, and perhaps even humanity's continued existence, is ultimately incompatible with the true nature of the Universe.

Altering this precept is fine and good, but not compatible with the Mythos as Lovecraft envisioned it.

 

[Tonguez]

that CoC is still level based is sad it had the opportunity

anyway I've been working on levelessness abd have come up with an almost workable idea

EVERY CHARACTER starts

HD 4
skill points 4*(6+int)
Feats 2 (+D10 for DnD type power levels)

* Attack, Defence (AC =10 +def), and Saves are all skills

what mechanism do you use to improve PC skills/HP

FEATS
Skill Training Feat = gain d4 skill points
HP Feat = gain +2HP (stackable) eg HD4+2+2 (2 feats 5 - 8 HP))

Additional Feats are gained via XP eg 1 Feat = 1000xp.

The problem I’m working on now is the XP value that should apply for Feats. I have been testing 1000xp per feat for DnD, for CoC this should be much higher (say 5000xp)

As to DnD class abilities (including spellcasting, spell levels and spell slots) are all redefined as feats/feat chains

SKILLS
I’ve divided these into General (1 point per rank) and Expert Skills (2 points per rank). Attack (Bab), Defense and Saves are all Expert Skills as are Spellcraft, Scry, Alchemy etc

Can anyone see problems here?

 

[tsadkiel]

Altering this precept is fine and good, but not compatible with the Mythos as Lovecraft envisioned it.

Lovecraft never envisioned a mythos. (Let alone a Mythos.) he and his friends wrote a bunch of stories, some of them with tongue firmly planted in cheek (see Luveh-Keraph, High Priest of Bast, for instance) and used common elements in many of those stories. There was no attempt at any sort of coherent mythology. And the futility-of-human-existence meter varies wildly form author to author, and even among stories by the same author (Nyarlathotep and company seem almost envious of humanity in parts of The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, for instance.)

The Mythos as we know it is really the creation of Sandy Peterson, who looked over the stories, picked the thematic elements that appealed to him, and created a setting for a role-playing game.

 

[Pillars of Hercules]

Good stuff

There's some great stuff here - thanks for all your replies. In fact, I think this is the first thread I ever posted that went to 2 pages. Makes me feel all warm and loved.

It seems that CoC d20 will be effectively classless, which is very interesting to me. A precursor of D&D 4E? Who knows, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I am very pleased and fascinated by the "Offense" and "Defense" options described in the link posted above, where players can elect progression of save and BaB for their PCs. Wow, that is customizability!

I can MAYBE live with levels in CoC (you have to assign some sort of mechanic for skill improvements, after all), particularly if HP won't go up much. Still, this does bother me a bit. If the rules are done in such a way that we see a big ramp up in PC power from the standpoint of level-dependant abilities (other than just more skill points) I'll be displeased from a purely CoC standpoint, particularly because I'd like to see skill point improvement somehow tied at least loosely (note correct usage of "loose" on the Internet - 2 points for me!) to successful use of a skill, rather than just accumulation of XP. This is not a huge problem to the extent you try to port the d20 CoC rules over into a more heroic genre.

Are they planning to have feats? Not sure how I feel about including feats in d20 CoC - sounds an awful lot like "level-dependent benefits" of the type I am wary of per the above paragraph.

I'm a little concerned that even a WP/VP system might make PCs too powerful in CoC, but again if you're trying to use d20 CoC as a template for classless d20 that's not such a big deal. Nonetheless, for CoC itself I'm somewhat mollified to hear that it will be a modified WP/VP system (devil's in the details there, perhaps, but let's see what they come up with).

On the whole, I'm intrigued by the possibilities - not only those arising from just using d20 CoC to actually play CoC, but also those arising from the possibility d20 CoC can be used to play classless d20 in any genre.

Now if I could just get a magic system that feels "right." Definitely a topic for another thread!

 

[SableWyvern]

Lovecraft never envisioned a mythos. (Let alone a Mythos.) he and his friends wrote a bunch of stories, some of them with tongue firmly planted in cheek (see Luveh-Keraph, High Priest of Bast, for instance) and used common elements in many of those stories. There was no attempt at any sort of coherent mythology. And the futility-of-human-existence meter varies wildly form author to author, and even among stories by the same author (Nyarlathotep and company seem almost envious of humanity in parts of The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, for instance.)

The Mythos as we know it is really the creation of Sandy Peterson, who looked over the stories, picked the thematic elements that appealed to him, and created a setting for a role-playing game.

I agree in part, and I'll also admit that my own understanding is limited to Chaosium's CoC and maybe 20 of Lovecraft's stories - nothing by any other Mythos author (the Lurker at the Threshold being a partial exception).

I still think that it is safe to say that planning a successful conventional assault on an Old One is a large divergance from the general feel of Lovecraft's writings.

Either way, whether I'm right or wrong, it's neither relevant to the original topic, nor as I first stated, does it necessarily matter if d20 Cthulhu has a different feel.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Its the same mechanically, but not psychologically. Does it really make sense to say I have a 120% chance of picking an average lock?

I like the concept of DCs much better than % checks, especially becuase when you are playing a game, wanting to roll LOW on skill checks and HIGH on attack rolls and saves just doesn't make intuitive sense.

Just to make a point - in Runequest (from which CoC was derived), you needed to roll LOW to make a skill check, and LOW to make an attack of any kind too. Attacks were just a specific kind of skill.

And in a response to the original poster - again speaking just from RQ, and not CoC - Attributes were much more important than they ever used to be in pre 3e days, because they added to one or more "area bonuses" such as knowledge bonus (applies to all knowledge skills), Attack bonus (all attack skills), Manipulation bonus, Stealth bonus etc.

It may be that they gutted RQ by simplifying it into CoC - I know the move from RQ2 to RQ3 when Chaosium sold it to Avalon Hill was entirely bad from the point of view of my gaming group.

IIRC Chaosium produced a game called "basic roleplaying" which was a simplified form of RQ but which could be used for fantasy, sci-fi and (something else). This was then grown into CoC, Elric and probably some others too.

Ah well, end of rant.

Cheers