Will CON become a dump stat?

[Bandreus]

Well, this will depend a lot on the player side. Basicly 4E math is telling you, chose your class (determines your primary skill), chose your class' preferred build (determines your other primary skill). Every class has at least another skill wich is somewhat important to it. Interestingly, it seems all six ability scores have some meaningfull effect on your character, regardless of its class.

Also note the game is not forcing you to max one specific skill depending on your class. I.e. you can chose to play an high INT fighter instead of an high DEX one, wich is something 3.X didn't really did, considering the new math behind your AC and REF defenses.

Min-maxing will of course be there in some form, but I think the new system will end up giving more freedom to the way you spend points on your ability score and mold your character. This won't probably be the end of Uber chars, tough.

So CON is not going to be a dump stat, imo. It could be less important to your char depending on his race/class/build, but there won't be trully dump stats in 4E like we had in 3.X, as far as I can tell.

 

[Felon]

Min-maxing will of course be there in some form, but I think the new system will end up giving more freedom to the way you spend points on your ability score and mold your character.

So, continuing this line of speculation, let's consider the following: say we get a 32 point buy for ability scores. How much deviation do you figure we'll see from this array: 18, 16, 14, 8, 8, 8?

 

[phil500]

So, continuing this line of speculation, let's consider the following: say we get a 32 point buy for ability scores. How much deviation do you figure we'll see from this array: 18, 16, 14, 8, 8, 8?

I expect to see quite a bit. would be dissapointed if any given build had more than 2 dump stats.

knocking an 18 down to 16 gets an 8 up to 14 i think.

to what extent were the pregens min/maxed?

 

[AllisterH]

I expect to see quite a bit. would be dissapointed if any given build had more than 2 dump stats.

knocking an 18 down to 16 gets an 8 up to 14 i think.

to what extent were the pregens min/maxed?

Using the pregens wouldn't help. They tend not to minmax the iconics I've found.

As for Felon's question, I think it really depends on the class/race breakdown. For example, a dwarven fighter gets a bonus to CON and WIS IIRC. However, unlike Felon, I don't think you'l want to dump CON if you're a fighter but supposedly, most of your attacks derive off of your STR so honestly, until I see what feats/powers I get,Im hesistant to believe that Felon's point buy fear is valid.

There is a subtle effect with the skill system on stats. Given that it automatically scales, many players may NOT automatically dump stats they don't need. Say for example you focused on STR/DEX/WIS but given the fact that any CHA based skills don't automatically become useless to you, you might not dump CHA for example.

I've seen players dump CHA not just because it didn't affect their powers directly but also because the skill system meant they would've been screwed anyway with regard to CHA skills (not having the points to apply to t)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Didn´t read everything, but:#

1st: Derren has a point. If you had a 5 min workday in 3.x, CON is now a viable dump stat. (if you avoid powers that rely on CON)

2nd: CON is now a viable dump stat, not necessarily for fighters, who need them to be actively healed, but for wizards or other people not standing in the middle of the fight. With high con, you can survive one or two more hits and you can be repaired more often... also usually you have no high strength to compensate a low score in con, but thats usually ok
In 3.x CON no wizard could afford a CON score below 12 or your average hp was 2,5*level or less. Lower than the average fireball damage... coupled with your godlike reflex save, a wizards duel last exactly one round, ending with the death of the one who rolled worse on ini.

Beeing able to shift dump stats is great. You need possible dump stats. Your defenses should still be viable. dump stats will mostly be reflected by skills.

Take INT: high dex compensates it. But most knowledge skills use INT. Most monsters have entries with usefull information depending on your knowledge skill in certain areas. Also we have not seen the least of rituals...

 

[Cadfan]

I think a lot of people are reasoning as follows.

Stat A gives me X, Y and Z. Stat B gives me just Z and Q. I already had Z from Stat A! Stat B must be useless.

That's the only way I can see someone believing that Con can be a dump stat for a fighter. And its absurd. "Q" in this case is hit points. Hit points are important.

There are certain dump stats in 4e. Which stat is a dump stat varies by class, and of course could be changed depending on what feats are in the game. But there aren't as many dump stats as people think. Just because defenses are given to pairs of stats doesn't automatically make half the stats useless.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

but of course you try to maximize. If stat A give X + Y + Z and stat B gives just X, then you usually go for stat A. But maybe stat B gives also U + V... and U and Y is both very important, so you can go for A AND B.

In 3.x, i liked to dump wisdom with my gnome, because they don´t fit well together. As a bard, i could afford a somewhat lower wisdom (7) but i used my first stat improvement and a feat on improving it, becasue a very low will save will kill you outright at higher levels... then there was a feat which lets you substitute wisdom by charisma. It felt like cheating, also my char was build before i knew of this feat. Not taking that feat would have been stupid. Having that directly in the core rules for everyone makes it more balanced. A low wisdom will still affect your passive perception and your passive insight, and most important:

your role playing of your character!

a low score is always a nice roleplaying hook. In 3.5 its not. you can´t afford a low INT (skillpoints) a low con (hitpoints), very low dex or wisdom without compensation. The only two possible dump stats were strength and charisma (hey I am weak or hey I am ugly).

 

[drjones]

I think if anyone seriously thinks 4.0 CON will be useless they should put some money down that their 4 man 6 CON team will kick the butts of any non-crazyland designed 4 man team once the PHB is in our hands. Cash on the barrelhead son.

 

[Felon]

a low score is always a nice roleplaying hook. In 3.5 its not. you can´t afford a low INT (skillpoints) a low con (hitpoints), very low dex or wisdom without compensation. The only two possible dump stats were strength and charisma (hey I am weak or hey I am ugly).

What are you trying to say here? In 3.5 you could play a low Int, Con, Dex, or Wis character. Of course you'd have penalties to deal with--your dumb character would have fewer skill points, your low Con character would be mroe frail, your low Dex character would be slow and clumsy, and your low Wis character would be susceptable to charms and illusions--but that's all exactly what one should expect from having those weaknesses. What would be preferrable? You have a low ability score, but it's not actually limiting in any in any way? It's just a low number on your character sheet?

If you want to play character with a peg leg, but you don't actually want it to impact your agility, then go ahead and have the peg leg, but don't lowball your Dex.

 

[Felon]

Using the pregens wouldn't help. They tend not to minmax the iconics I've found.

As for Felon's question, I think it really depends on the class/race breakdown. For example, a dwarven fighter gets a bonus to CON and WIS IIRC. However, unlike Felon, I don't think you'l want to dump CON if you're a fighter but supposedly, most of your attacks derive off of your STR so honestly, until I see what feats/powers I get,Im hesistant to believe that Felon's point buy fear is valid.

So, here's my bottom line scenario. We got two dwarves, Abel and Baker. Dwarf Abel buys 14 Str & 16 Con, while Dwarf Baker buys 8 Str & 20 Con. They both use axes. If Baker is able to build his dwarf so that he can shill Con for all of his axe attack and damage rolls, then what benefit is he missing out on that Abel gets for investing in Str?