Will CON become a dump stat?

[FadedC]

As a side note it might be worthwhile for those discussing this to look at the warlord excerpt and note that much like the rogue he has powers that benefit from 2 of his stats which would otherwise provide him with little mechanical benefit.

It's reasonable to assume at this point that every class has 2 secondary stats in addition to their primary stat. So the wizard for example is likely to have 2 other stats that are important to him other then int.

 

[Felon]

1.) Each score will STILL affect something, I'd wager.

Charisma affects something, yet it's still regarded as a dump stat. The question is, does the dump affect something that's of general utility? This is the loop we keep going into. We've got numerous posts basically saying it's great to be able to dump stat any score you want because it gives us all of this freedom to invent scewed-up characters, because now they're only screwed-up on paper. But if you're free to dump stat without feeling the loss, then highballing those scores becomes just as "unthinkable" as low-balling them was in 3e. At least when you lowball in a point-buy system, you actually got something out of it: you saved some points!

2.) I can marginalize an ability score in 3.5, but it requires the right feats, classes, and templates. Just a few examples.

Monk WIS to AC.
Duelist INT to AC.
Paladin CHA to Saves.
Swashbuckler: INT to wpn Damage (CW)
Wpn Finesse: DEX to hit (light wpn)
Zen Archery: WIS to hit (ranged 30') (CW)
Insightful Reflex: INT to reflex (CAd)
Force of Personality: CHA to Will (CAd)
Steadfast Determination: CON to Will (PH2)
Agile Athlete: DEX to Climb/Jump (RW)
Tactile Trapsmith: DEX to Search/Disable Device (CAd)

A swashbuckler can effectively dump-stat str, a fighter can dump-stat wis, a rogue can dump-stat str, a mage can dump-stat dex already. It just costs them a feat or a class level to do it.

Why bother and just give people the ability to do it from the get-go?

The answer's pretty elementary: because you shouldn't get something for nothing. In a point-buy system, a feat or a class level is the cost paid to allow you to funnel points into a single ability score. That's a trade-off, and it answers the question that should have already occurred to anyone reading that post: what does the guy who didn't do all of that dump-statting get?

 

[Cadfan]

In a point-buy system, a feat or a class level is the cost paid to allow you to funnel points into a single ability score. That's a trade-off, and it answers the question that should have already occurred to anyone reading that post: what does the guy who didn't do all of that dump-statting get?

In a point buy system? While you were increasing Int from 16 to 18, he increased Dex from 8 to 14. In that context, Dex only has to be 1/3 as useful as Int for this to be a balanced choice.

 

[Felon]

In a point buy system? While you were increasing Int from 16 to 18, he increased Dex from 8 to 14. In that context, Dex only has to be 1/3 as useful as Int for this to be a balanced choice.

In the above scenario, one or more scores is dump stat. Those points that not invested in those stats are funneled into getting a score up as high as it could go. In your scenario, if Int is the pump stat and Dex is the dump stat, you're better off boosting Int.

I don't think gradients like "1/3 as useful" really resonate with the way gamers consider these investments. I'd posit that a more accurate set of grades would be "must-have", "wanna-have", and "optional-at-best".

 

[Spatula]

So, what if the net result of that is that you now feel like an idiot for putting anything beyond a minimal investment in most of those scores? How about if Int can shill for so many other scores that your Raistlin's low ability scores are just numbers on a piece of paper? How do you feel about every wizard being a Raistlin?

Ah, but Raistlin is still suboptimal, just not to an extent that the character is crippled. For an already-fragile class, having fewer healing surges is almost certainly going to impact you, especially since "eliminate the wizard" is usually at the top of most opponent's priorities.

But regardless, I understand your point - you think the setup in 4e will encourage making wizards with five 8's and an 18, and such a character will be able to get along just fine - I just don't agree at this time, because there's still a lot we don't know. It remains to be seen how useful stats that are not Int or Con will be (or one of Wis/Cha for the Will def) for a wizard. In the meantime, I do like the idea that I can make a charismatic wizard (frex) and not short the character something vital. But it could be that I'm wrong about that, and all wizards will want a decent Wis, or something.

 

[Cadfan]

In the above scenario, one or more scores is dump stat. Those points that not invested in those stats are funneled into getting a score up as high as it could go. In your scenario, if Int is the pump stat and Dex is the dump stat, you're better off boosting Int.

My point was simply that in the above situation Dex wasn't necessarily a dump stat. It was just a less-good stat. At a certain point, in the D&D point buy system, a dump stat often stops being a dump stat due to diminishing returns in purchasing high stats.

If a marginal increase of +2 Str costs the same as a marginal increase of +6 Con, then there is a clear way for players to compare what they're getting for their investment, and decide whether Con is really worth continuing to ignore. I am fully confident that players are capable of discerning that paying 6 points to increase a stat from 16 to 18 is a direct tradeoff with their ability to pay 6 points to increase a different stat from 8 to 14, or three other stats from 8 to 10, or whatever their pleasure may be.

*Of course all of this is a moot point in dice based character creation.

 

[DarkKestral]

In a point buy system? While you were increasing Int from 16 to 18, he increased Dex from 8 to 14. In that context, Dex only has to be 1/3 as useful as Int for this to be a balanced choice.

Right, that's somewhat fair. However, many of the 3.X stats are basically confined to one set of roles for general usefulness and never even approach 1/3 the usefulness of say.. getting another +1 to nearly all of your attacks or save DC. Why? I'd guess that 90%+ of all rolls in most games are some form of attack roll or save, so buffing your attack with an extra +1 is almost always a 5% effective increase in total ability, while giving another skill point to put in a skill that's never used anyway is almost always a 0% effective increase. Thus the origin of dumpstatting.

Which leads me back to your argument: Is Dex 1/3 as useful as Int or Con for a wizard? I'd assume it isn't; I see a fair number of wizards with low dex, but I never see low con or low int wizards unless the player knows it's a bad idea but is doing it anyway.

Given the fact that, in 3.5, Ref saves tend to be associated with the weakest monster powers, few classes have an incentive to try for a good ref save unless they have some feat or power that lets them convert some other save into ref saves and already have a large investment in Dex or powers that make ref saves less useful against them. (example: rogues, particularly as most have high Dex and at high enough levels, Imp Uncanny Dodge makes converting things to ref saves not a bad idea) Furthermore, as wizards have so many ways of making physical attacks against them quite difficult before considering dex bonuses to AC, I firmly propose that my assumption is probably a reasonable one, since they have low base HP so Con is a necessary priority and Int is their basic fuel for their save DCs and their way of extending their usefulness in combat via additional spells/day. Plus, monster saves tend to be jacked up high enough that maximizing saves is almost always a good idea until your DCs are 19 points above the saves of the opponent in question, as high level combat often boils down to "whoever fails a save first loses, and failing that, whoever gets init first wins." This makes Int more important, as wizards are the best core class at making opponents force lethal saves in 3.5. Thankfully, Int to Init is found in 3.5 as well, so the primary reason for a wizard to take dex outside of AC is also a possible special ability.

The question is: in 4th edition, what stops a player from dumpstatting all but one or two stats? What are the inherent benefits of each stat that make wizards want Str or Dex, fighters Int or Cha, and warlords Dex? If there aren't any, for all practical intents and purposes, there's no point in having base stats that have multiple effects outside of powers. And that's why I agree with Felon here; I don't like the idea that all wizards have to be hardy, agile weaklings with booksmarts and no ability to spot patterns and that repulse those around them with their appearance, lack of personal hygiene, or lack of social skills. (That sounds like the average gamer stereotype, except for the hardy and agile bits...) I want to see wizards that able to lift a 300 lb barbell, or are charming b*****ds who can worm their way into other peoples affections without using a spell, but aren't the absolute best at beating the opponents spell defenses capable mechanically of being just as viable as a Raistlin-type, without it just being fluff. Fluff should show in mechanics, mechanics should show in fluff.

 

[Stalker0]

The question is: in 4th edition, what stops a player from dumpstatting all but one or two stats? What are the inherent benefits of each stat that make wizards want Str or Dex, fighters Int or Cha, and warlords Dex?

There is one example I can provide. Golden Wyvern Adept is a feat wizard's can take. With any area effect, they can not effect one square in that area per wisdom modifier. So with a 14 wisdom for example, they could shoot a blast around them that wouldn't affect 2 allies. That's a pretty handy benefit, but its only available to wise wizards.

We may see "tactical fighter feats" "agile spellcasting" feats and the like that give benefits to those character to have have stats out of their normal "optimal" areas. But other than that, I do agree with the concerns about dumpstatting.

 

[Cadfan]

Which leads me back to your argument: Is Dex 1/3 as useful as Int or Con for a wizard? I'd assume it isn't; I see a fair number of wizards with low dex, but I never see low con or low int wizards unless the player knows it's a bad idea but is doing it anyway.

Actually, if you want to use rays, Dex is awfully important. Your big shiny ray of disintegration is awfully lame when it misses. Dex is certainly not a necessary characteristic of a 3e wizard, but it can be a useful one. And if you intend to use rays, I assure you, +3 to attack rolls beats +1 to saves.

The question is: in 4th edition, what stops a player from dumpstatting all but one or two stats? What are the inherent benefits of each stat that make wizards want Str or Dex, fighters Int or Cha, and warlords Dex?

You ask a legitimate question, but then you steer off the track. Which is the question? What stops a player from dumpstatting all but one or two stats? Or what stops a player from dumpstatting a mere one or two stats?

Because honestly, what 4e character class is there that can afford to dumpstat 4 stats? Is there one? Is there any reason to think there might be one?

And if the question is "what stops a character from having two dump stats," and the answer is "nothing," is this bad, and if so, how bad?

And that's why I agree with Felon here; I don't like the idea that all wizards have to be hardy, agile weaklings with booksmarts and no ability to spot patterns and that repulse those around them with their appearance, lack of personal hygiene, or lack of social skills. (That sounds like the average gamer stereotype, except for the hardy and agile bits...) I want to see wizards that able to lift a 300 lb barbell, or are charming b*****ds who can worm their way into other peoples affections without using a spell, but aren't the absolute best at beating the opponents spell defenses capable mechanically of being just as viable as a Raistlin-type, without it just being fluff. Fluff should show in mechanics, mechanics should show in fluff.

Well, to a certain extent, in a class based system you're probably going to just have to deal with a certain amount of class based stat allocation. So when it comes to the wizard who lifts weights, you may be out of luck. But I understand the general principle. I just don't see the problem based on what we know.

Looking at the classes we know about (rogue and warlord), here's what I see. I see reasons for to make a rogue who uses Str, Con, Dex obviously, Wis, and Cha. The only dump stat I see is Int. And with the Warlord, I see reasons to make warlords who use Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha. Every single stat.

Now, I don't see any reason for ONE PARTICULAR rogue or warlord to use all those stats. For example, my high Wis rogue doesn't need Cha. He'll probably dumpstat both Cha and Int. But I don't think that's a problem. When our dump stats are being handed out based on specific sub-builds of classes, I think its safe to say they're no longer true dump stats. We're just seeing the regular process of a character class influencing the stats a character in that class uses. And some of that is right and proper.

 

[DarkKestral]

Cad: the one thing I've seen that prevents players from dumpstatting in general is that quadratic costcurve combined with useful benefits from stacking "off-stats". I'm not totally against dumpstatting; I just think that players should be rewarded for putting a few points into a non-traditional stat once their primary stats have reached an acceptable level and think total dumpstats are bad design if only because they say that on-paper weaknesses shouldn't translate directly into the game.

Dump stats should be somewhat individualized; the situation with Cha is the result of imbalanced design where 5 stats have something broadly useful to most classes and the 6th doesn't, and I don't think it should be the model for 4th ed. Overly broad statdumping produces Raistlins; in theory, they suck, but in practice, they work, if only because many GMs and adventure modules generally avoid the practice of forcing players to use skills and abilities they didn't invest much in to avoid player complaint. Zero dump versions produce the 3.5 paladins or monks: characters without a real "focus". I'm more looking for things that would make it possible that would fully utilize an optimized version of the elite array that kept the array's wide stat spread and derive real benefit from having 2 "slightly above average" stats that aren't dumped, but don't lose too much ground versus the 18/18/remainder player who puts his points into Int/Str/Cha/Dex as appropriate for his class, Con, then Dex/Wis/Int/Str in that order all the time.