D&D 5E Will items Break 5E?

[Maxperson]

Sure in an ideal world, but unless you have a standard rate of comparison for games, and how many GM's run games RAW, its very hard to get a clear consensus on what fits for different playstyles.

How many DMs do you think don't run energy resistance as they are supposed to? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of DMs look at a monster that has energy resistance and runs it as written. Just like the vast majority very likely run physical resistances as written. That means all we need to do is compare the two in the books and both types are all over the place.

 

[Art Waring]

How many DMs do you think don't run energy resistance as they are supposed to? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of DMs look at a monster that has energy resistance and runs it as written. Just like the vast majority very likely run physical resistances as written. That means all we need to do is compare the two in the books and both types are all over the place.

Look, if you really want to get back on track, let me try to summarize the thread:

Martials need magic weapons to be effective against monsters with non-magical resistance.

Casters are able to deal magic damage right out of the box.

RAW: Magic items aren't mandatory. So a LV-3 Fighter against a bearded devil is going to have a very hard time dealing damage w/o a magic or a silver weapon. The mage simply casts a spell, ignoring the NM resistance w/o needing any items.

Forget about elemental resistances, we are talking about dealing damage effectively as a class. Spellcasters outclass fighters in every way.

---> Take away the fighters magic sword and he can't deal damage to the devil.

 

[Mort]

Look, if you really want to get back on track, let me try to summarize the thread:

Martials need magic weapons to be effective against monsters with non-magical resistance.

Casters are able to deal magic damage right out of the box.

RAW: Magic items aren't mandatory. So a LV-3 Fighter against a bearded devil is going to have a very hard time dealing damage w/o a magic or a silver weapon. The mage simply casts a spell, ignoring the NM resistance w/o needing any items.

Forget about elemental resistances, we are talking about dealing damage effectively as a class. Spellcasters outclass fighters in every way.

---> Take away the fighters magic sword and he can't deal damage to the devil.

Resistance is not immunity. The fighter is dealing half damage not NO damage. He can get the devil to go down.

And guess what, if the wizard has the firebolt cantrip and flaming sphere as his damage go to's(extremely common)? Then it's the wizard who's dealing no damage to the devil. Same with poison spray. If he has ray of Frost as his cantrip? Then he deals half, but it will be less than the fighter because no stat bonus for the wizard to do better. He has to blow an expendable resource like magic missile or chromatic orb to do full- but he can't do that too long!

Regardless, we're theory crafting. How often do fighters NOT have magic at the levels that actually matter? Have you ever been in a campaign where it happened? And if so, was the fighter as hamstrung as your writing?

 

[Art Waring]

Regardless, we're theory crafting. How often do fighters NOT have magic at the levels that actually matter? Have you ever been in a campaign where it happened? And if so, was the fighter as hamstrung as your writing?

Yes, I am actually speaking form personal experience. I have played in other GMs games where they insisted on never using any magic items, primarily because they were not that experienced, and they were treating the wording in the book as their reasoning. So yes I have played fighters that literally have to run up against devils and displacer beasts, and be the meatshield out in front to allow the spellcaster to do their thing.

 

[Mort]

Yes, I am actually speaking form personal experience. I have played in other GMs games where they insisted on never using any magic items, primarily because they were not that experienced, and they were treating the wording in the book as their reasoning. So yes I have played fighters that literally have to run up against devils and displacer beasts, and be the meatshield out in front to allow the spellcaster to do their thing.

Interesting that you pick displacer beast.

It has no resistance to nonmagic weapons, so the fighter isn't worse off than the wizard. In fact, since the displacer beast has avoidance, it's the wizard that's worse off because big spells like fireball/lightning bolt will do half or no damage. While the fighter is fine (AC 13 isn't that bad, even at disadvantage) and doing great if he took blindfighting (no disadvantage).

As for devils, the fighter is disadvantaged but not useless, half damage can still be a lot.

All that said, if the DM is doing nothing BUT throwing monsters at the party that disadvantage the fighter only? That's just bad on the DMs part.

The DM would ALSO be making a bad call to throw just monsters that screw over casters - of which there are plenty.

 

[Art Waring]

Interesting that you pick displacer beast.

It has no resistance to nonmagic weapons, so the fighter isn't worse off than the wizard

Displacer beast grants disadvantage to attacks against it, another creature that literally took an hour of standing there and trying to hit it with a sword. No it doesnt have resistance, but its still a real challenge for fighters without help, especially when I wasn't trying to optimize my character i was trying ot have a good time.

All that said, if the DM is doing nothing BUT throwing monsters at the party that disadvantage the fighter only? That's just bad on the DMs part.

And that's exactly my point, RAW, GMs have no incentive to help fighters, and new GMs are given ZERO guidance in the books as how to design balanced encounters.

No charts for starting wealth above 1st level, no magic items unless the GM hands them out, no way for fighters to even the playing field unless the GM chooses to do so...

 

[Maxperson]

Martials need magic weapons to be effective against monsters with non-magical resistance.

This is a false premise, though. Those monsters are designed with no magic items in mind. They are balanced with martials doing half damage, just like other creatures are balanced around casters doing half or no damage due to elemental resistances.

Casters are able to deal magic damage right out of the box.

First, so are martials. I didn't see a single creature that had physical resistances through D in the MM that had a CR under 3, so right out of the gate they can deal damage just like casters. Magic damage isn't relevant right out of the box. Only damage is. Second, around the time(earlier actually) that martials start seeing physical resistances, elemental resistances which are more common are showing up, so things are still on par in this regard.

RAW: Magic items aren't mandatory. So a LV-3 Fighter against a bearded devil is going to have a very hard time dealing damage w/o a magic or a silver weapon. The mage simply casts a spell, ignoring the NM resistance w/o needing any items.

And then finds that his fire spell did 0 damage. Any poison spells do 0 damage and cold spells do half damage. Spellcasters have limited spells available to memorize and they fill up a bunch with utility, so they aren't going to have a large selection of energy spells to pick from. If they have the wrong ones around, they do little to no damage.

Forget about elemental resistances, we are talking about dealing damage effectively as a class. Spellcasters outclass fighters in every way.

Sure, if nothing has resistance to elemental damage spellcasters are a lot better at damage than fighters. Reality isn't that way, though. Elemental resistances are common and often cause spellcasters to do half or no damage in a round.

---> Take away the fighters magic sword and he can't deal damage to the devil.

First, this is objectively wrong. Resistance is half damage, so he can deal damage. Second, all he needs is a silvered weapon to do full damage. Magic isn't needed against a bearded devil.

 

[Maxperson]

Interesting that you pick displacer beast.

It has no resistance to nonmagic weapons, so the fighter isn't worse off than the wizard. In fact, since the displacer beast has avoidance, it's the wizard that's worse off because big spells like fireball/lightning bolt will do half or no damage. While the fighter is fine (AC 13 isn't that bad, even at disadvantage) and doing great if he took blindfighting (no disadvantage).

As for devils, the fighter is disadvantaged but not useless, half damage can still be a lot.

All that said, if the DM is doing nothing BUT throwing monsters at the party that disadvantage the fighter only? That's just bad on the DMs part.

The DM would ALSO be making a bad call to throw just monsters that screw over casters - of which there are plenty.

This. Where fighters are disadvantaged is not in the damage department, but rather in the social and exploration pillars. They need a bit of help there.

 

[Mort]

Displacer beast grants disadvantage to attacks against it, another creature that literally took an hour of standing there and trying to hit it with a sword. No it doesnt have resistance, but its still a real challenge for fighters without help, especially when I wasn't trying to optimize my character i was trying ot have a good time.

My point there was the wizard will have the same or worse problems with the displacer beast because in addition to displacement it also has avoidance which is as big or bigger a problem for the wizard.

And that's exactly my point, RAW, GMs have no incentive to help fighters, and new GMs are given ZERO guidance in the books as how to design balanced encounters.

No charts for starting wealth above 1st level, no magic items unless the GM hands them out, no way for fighters to even the playing field unless the GM chooses to do so...

Well that's a different issue. The DMG is not well organized and does not provide proper guidance to fledgling DMs. My understanding is, this is a prime concern for the 2024 update - we'll see how they do.

 

[Art Waring]

Well that's a different issue. The DMG is not well organized and does not provide proper guidance to fledgling DMs. My understanding is, this is a prime concern for the 2024 update - we'll see how they do.

That is my hope as well that things improve a little, if at leas to help new GMs who are still getting the hang of things.