D&D 5E Will magic be problematic at latter levels?

[BobTheNob]

Since saving throws do not scale, spell save DCs shouldn't either.

I dont mind a LITTLE scaling (emphasis on little), but it should be matched, or at least have (non-equipment) options to help it match up

I much prefer the current version of Dominate, which gives the creature advantage on its save if it has more HD than your level, over HP thresholds, which I loathe.

MUCH better than HP thresholds (IMO). HP thresholds...so divisive.

 

[Li Shenron]

With the spellcasting bonus, saving throws do little good at high levels. A 20th level wizard can have a save DC of 20 (10 + 5 for a 20 Int and +5 from class). Even if the target has a 20 ability score in the stat being targeted, he has only a 30% chance to save (having to roll a 15 or higher on the d20 to succeed). If the target is unfortunate enough to have a 10 in that score, he has only a 5% chance to save! This is ridiculously unbalanced, and I say this as someone who loves playing spellcasters.

Wow, I almost cannot believe they overlooked this...

Basically in previous packets spellcasters had "magical attack bonus" with presumably the same progression up to +5, but it rolled against the taget's static AC. OTOH the spell DC for ST IIRC did not scale by level.

Now they just used the same progression for the spell DC, and didn't notice that ST have no progression?

I am afraid they will now try to fix it by introducing a ST progression like in 3e, one more thing that 5e didn't need... this will be a design regression IMHO.

One small proof that they have been messy, is that the Magic chapter in "How to play" still mentions that you add your relevant ability modifier to your spell DC, but it doesn't mention the level-based spellcasting bonus.

 

[BobTheNob]

Wow, I almost cannot believe they overlooked this...

TY to falling Icicle for wording it better than I did! Glad your seeing the issue.

Its not a small problem, especially given that the right spell can be so very nasrty in its effect, and it you have (say) a stat of 14 to resist a caster that blasts at DC 20, your screwed regardless.

For my part, I dont mind a little scaling of saves, emphasis on little, to help balance this out. Makes sense to me anyway...you are higher level, you have learned a few tricks to avoid such things : it matches player expectations of what to expect from level gain and verisimilitude.

You just have to make sure its reasonable. WOTC has recognized that a variance of 10 points is really as high as you can go on a d20 effecting number, and so thats where the casters sit at the extreme of their level gain (makes sense) and Im perfectly fine if saving throws were given the same sensitivity of how much growth is acceptable.

 

[Falling Icicle]

TY to falling Icicle for wording it better than I did! Glad your seeing the issue.

You're welcome.

For my part, I dont mind a little scaling of saves, emphasis on little, to help balance this out. Makes sense to me anyway...you are higher level, you have learned a few tricks to avoid such things : it matches player expectations of what to expect from level gain and verisimilitude.

You just have to make sure its reasonable. WOTC has recognized that a variance of 10 points is really as high as you can go on a d20 effecting number, and so thats where the casters sit at the extreme of their level gain (makes sense) and Im perfectly fine if saving throws were given the same sensitivity of how much growth is acceptable.

Not trying to be contrary, but I don't think any save DC scaling is necessary. Casters are already at a big advantage because they can pump up their save DCs by having just one good stat, while their victims must have a good score in every stat to cover every type of saving throw.

 

[Li Shenron]

For my part, I dont mind a little scaling of saves, emphasis on little, to help balance this out.

Yes but the problem I see is that attacks scales to the same magnitudes as spells DC, and AC and ST don't scale (except for general increase on ability scores that affect all these 4 equally). But AC is higher than ST because of equipment, at least for some characters. This means that the rate of success of a spell is better compared to that of a weapon attack, and damage also is getting better. Spells will then be limited by daily slots, but at mid-level they are already plenty enough to cast often enough.

Don't know, maybe it all works fine after all. Personally I hope they don't put ST progressions back, it would be one more thing to keep track of. If the effect is the same, I would prefer they remove the spellcasting bonus.

Would this mean a high level wizard has the same chance of affecting you with a spell as a low level wizard? Yes it would (except for the higher spellcasting ability score, but difference will be small since it caps at 20). But the real question is, would this really be that bad?? We're talking about spellcasters who always dominate the game at high levels anyway, and a higher level wizard will anyway have more powerful spells and bigger damage on lower spells too, so why should we be afraid of keeping the save DC low?

Edit: ninjad by [MENTION=17077]Falling Icicle[/MENTION]

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Taking a look at the current options for armour (which are still terribly designed), your AC probably goes up by 4 if you are in light armour, 1 if you are in medium armor and 2 if you are in heavy armour, from starting equipment to the best available. Given that the best attacks probably improve by 6 (+3+1 to +5+5), the intention there appears to be that you hit more frequently with level. The starting balance is such that you need about a 10 to hit.

Saving throws will start at around 14, where your best ability will give you +3 to save, so you need an 11 to save. As noted above, your best ability goes up by 2, whereas the saving throw DC goes up by 6. This is about the same as htiting heavy armour then, except that's the *best* case scenario - in reality you will probably never increase 2-3 of your abilities.

Firstly, is it ok that you get better at hitting (each other, didn't look at monster AC) as you increase in level? It does feel like progression that way, so I'm going to say yes. Thus it's ok for saving throws to become more difficult - except that there are 6 of them you need to consider, and they aren't at the same starting balance point either. We could put some load on the classes, as previous editions, and give saving throw bonuses by level. We could offer equipment that improves saving throws (difficult for mental saves if we're talking about mundane things). We could remove the bonus to saving throws, so they progress only by ability increase, but that might make spellcasters feel like they lack improvement. I'm stumped - there's not really an elegant solution without some proper reworking of the system.

 

[Blackwarder]

What about only adding half your spell casting modifier (rounds up) for the spell DC?

Thats way the highest natural DC will be 18 instead of 20.

Warder

 

[Drago Rinato]

Maybe they could add a little progression to ST, something like a +1, max +2.

Ex: +1 at 8th level (Heroic Save), and +2 at 14th level (Epic Save) for every ST for everyone.

 

[TerraDave]

Scalling saves was one of the big changes that came in with 3E, and one of the reasons that casters became even more dominant at high levels.

In 2e and 1e, if you were higher level, your saves were easy. period. So a caster might get that save or defeat spell off, but the odds were against it (and on top of that, higher level opponents would often have magic resistance and specific imunities).

 

[Kraydak]

Because spell casters get larger pools of spells (they can throw more follow-up spells if the first one fails) and higher level spells get more effective Save-or-Suck effects (although Cause Fear is OMGWTFBBQ in Next right now*) Saves need scale faster than Save DCs. Bluntly, if spell casters get fight-ending spells, from a balance point of view, they can't expect more than a handful (if that) of the spells to actually land *over an entire adventuring day*. Number of spell slots, powerful spells, save DCs, choose *1*. Next is current going for 2.5 (the number is spell slots is modest).

*For fun, just look at the effectiveness of Cause Fear against Giants at spellcaster level 9.