D&D (2024) Will Pact Magic survive?

[GMforPowergamers]

To be honest, I've usually treated warlocks closer to magical rogues: you have a few neat tricks you can do at will, but more or less do the same thing every round. (Sneak attack vs eldritch blast).

I mean I consider them as simple (or as close as we have) to the two martial classes (fighter and rouge)

They aren't true spellcasters and shouldn't be considered equivalent to them.

they still get enough versatility and the flavor of being a spell caster... they are the easy caster to play.

As stated, there are just so many little headaches that exist in pact magic: your spell slots per day can be 2, 4, or 6, depending on how stingy your DM/group is with short rests.

I have never seen that as a flaw... since the spell slots to me seem to be bonus add on not needed.... INfact I ran over 2 full levels useing my cantrips and other at wills (speak with animals, the low level illusion, and mage armor) not useing my spell slots, not cause I didn't have access, but because between toll the dead for range and primal savagery for melee I didn't need much else.

The interaction with abilities that are fueled by spell slots, the fact that utility magic is wasted (for example, casting shield as a hexblade is a trap since it doesn't scale with spell level).

I have never seen a player turn a hit into a miss and complain about the cost... especially on a short rest resource.

And now that every other caster is being standardized, it just seems bad to have 7 classes all use the same magic rules and one that doesn't.

to this I agree... we need more variation though not more of the same.

Honestly, if backwards compatibility wasn't a factor,

this may be the only time that I call this back compatibility good... this is something I don't want them making less fun for me and my tables.

Eldritch blast should be a class feature

agreed

So idk, but I just hate pact magic as written. Either make warlocks casters or make them weird pseudo magical like monks, but the spell slots per short rest has got to go.

I would rather see cleric, bard, sorcerer and wizard all rewritten to have 2 scaling spell slots per short rest then see the warlock gutted

 

[GMforPowergamers]

* Yes, someone at your table picked a warlock as their first class and did great -- it's still the most complex class in the PHB by a large margin.

I'm sorry but compared to druid, cleric, wizard and bard????
this seems like a joke it is the least complex caster in the game.


I had to go back and look it up... you pick 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spells and your patron... that's it... wizard has to choose more 1st level spells then you do total options.

edit: at 2nd level you have 2 cantrips 3 1st level spells and 2 invocatons... at 1st level the wizard has to pick 6 first level spells and 3 cantrips... so if we count subclass/patron for warlock that is at level 2 8 choices, for wizard at level 1 it's 9 choices all from longer lists with more varried effects... and as you add more books to give the warlock more choices the wizard gains more still... and when the wizard goes up to level 2 it has to pick a subclass and 2 more 1st level spells to know....

edit 2 I forgot wizards prep so the wizard not only has 6 first lvel and 3 cantrips known but then preps int mosd (lets say 3) plus level spells... so at level 1 that is 4 more choices, some to be made daily, and at level 2 you get another prep spell... oh and wizards and clerics can ritual cast out the gate

 

[Undrave]

* Yes, someone at your table picked a warlock as their first class and did great -- it's still the most complex class in the PHB by a large margin.

How the heck is it the most complex???

 

[Remathilis]

I'm sorry but compared to druid, cleric, wizard and bard????
this seems like a joke it is the least complex caster in the game.


I had to go back and look it up... you pick 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spells and your patron... that's it... wizard has to choose more 1st level spells then you do total options.

edit: at 2nd level you have 2 cantrips 3 1st level spells and 2 invocatons... at 1st level the wizard has to pick 6 first level spells and 3 cantrips... so if we count subclass/patron for warlock that is at level 2 8 choices, for wizard at level 1 it's 9 choices all from longer lists with more varried effects... and as you add more books to give the warlock more choices the wizard gains more still... and when the wizard goes up to level 2 it has to pick a subclass and 2 more 1st level spells to know....

edit 2 I forgot wizards prep so the wizard not only has 6 first lvel and 3 cantrips known but then preps int mosd (lets say 3) plus level spells... so at level 1 that is 4 more choices, some to be made daily, and at level 2 you get another prep spell... oh and wizards and clerics can ritual cast out the gate

Warlocks are easy to play, but they are highly complicated to build. A warlock's play style is defined by their pact, their patron, their invocations and their spell selection. In theory, that should make them versatile, but in reality, there are really only two builds: eldritch blaster or hexblade. You don't have enough spells (or reliable access to them) to really do anything else. Which is why in my experience, hexblades tend to slide into paladin while blasters eventually opt for levels in sorcerer.

Which is a shame; warlocks should be akin to the other casters. There is definitely room for a spooky caster class. They should be on par with bards and druids in versatilty. But for all their seeming options, they are stuck just doing the same action over and over again. There are just a lot of choices in that class that ultimately boil down to being a melee skirmisher or ranged blaster. Almost everything else is designed to just make you less effective at those two rolls.

 

[Remathilis]

How the heck is it the most complex???

Because of almost all the classes, it's the one where you have to plan your character out ahead of time. You have to build into the blaster or the hexblade with the right patrons, pacts, invocations and spells. That's fine if you're an optimizer who likes to plan your character out several levels in advance, but it's brutal if you are making it up as you go. For example, if you plan to play a melee warlock, you must pick hexblade, blade pact, thirsting blade, etc or you will suck at it (and I don't mean not optimal, I mean fail at your role). A player who doesn't plan ahead can easily fall into trap options or miss key components. Like druid, it expects a certain amount of homework to play effectively, only in this case it's figuring out synergies between the major systems a warlock uses.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm sorry but compared to druid, cleric, wizard and bard????

When you're making any of those classes, you make a small handful of choices compared to a warlock.

In play, a warlock is less complicated ("I cast Eldritch Blast"), but when you're first making the character, especially as a newbie (see my original post)? There's a ton more choices for warlocks.

That's what I was specifically addressing.

 

[TerraDave]

In terms of designer intent, the cleric has been made more like the warlock. And warlock is certainly a popular class.

I am guessing pact magic will survive, fortunately.

 

[cranberry]

I really hope they only make changes in the margins. The warlock is fine the way it is.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I suspect it will survive because changing pact magic would be the biggest change to any of the classes. While I, and many others, may rant and rave about the changes they are making, overall the changes are probably too conservative to rethink a class that thoroughly. And if they were rethinking a class that thoroughly they probably would have introduced it in playtest by now to be able to get feedback and backpedal as necessary.

If you were to use the Spell Points variant rule and assume 2 short rests per long rests, then the points value of the warlocks spell slots comes out to about 1 level behind what a normal full caster would have.

I think the real problem with the pact magic system is that many spells don't benefit from upcasting and even most spells that benefit from upcasting don't upcast very effectively. So even if, as a matter of math, the Warlock is doing fine on slots, they often struggle to capture the full value of what they get, or if they do capture the full value it is because they focus on a handful of spells that do so, and thus sacrifice versatility.

So an alternative way to improve the Warlock would be to rewrite spells to be more upcasting friendly.

 

[Shiroiken]

Maybe what they could do is have the recharge mechanic of Warlock spell slots be rest-independent and more akin to a quick ritual? Like “you take 5 minutes to contact your Patron and recharge your mystical energies, recovering your spell slots. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus and all expended us are restored when you finish a long rest.”

I suspect this will be the change to the Warlock, since they are trying to make the game backwards compatible. If this was an entirely new edition, I'd assume a massive overhaul to the class instead.