Pathfinder 2E Will Pathfinder 2nd Edition Be Based on D&D 5E?

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the nature of Pathfinder 2nd Edition, with some folks believing that it will be based on the D&D 5E rules engine, in a similar way to how the original Pathfinder was based of the D&D 3.5 rules engine. The evidence points to it not being so.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the nature of Pathfinder 2nd Edition, with some folks believing that it will be based on the D&D 5E rules engine, in a similar way to how the original Pathfinder was based of the D&D 3.5 rules engine. The evidence points to it not being so.
playtestbook.jpg



In accordance with Betteridge's Law of Headlines, the quick answer is "no".

Paizo's Erik Mona says "While it's reasonable to assume that developments in other games have gone into some of our thinking with this new edition, it'd be wrong to assume that we're explicitly trying to make the game more like 5e, or like any other game. What we're trying to do is make the very best version of Pathfinder that we can."

But decide for yourself! The demo game on the Glass Cannon podcast doesn't sound much like D&D 5th Edition at all, certainly not to me. But give a listen and draw your own conclusions.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition will surely borrow concepts from a whole range of games, and 5E will almost certainly be notable amongst them. But even from the little description we have so far, I'm seeing influences from things like Cubicle 7's The One Ring, and other games.

While Paizo has said that Pathfinder 2nd Edition will be release under the Open Gaming License (the OGL) it's important to note that the OGL has been around for nearly two decades, and dozens of games are released under it (Pathfinder 1, Fate, Mutants & Masterminds, WOIN), none of which have the slightest thing to do with D&D 5E. There isn't a "5E OGL"; there's just the OGL. It doesn't contain any rules; it's just a way to license content to third parties. Paizo uses the OGL to license its game engine to its large array of third party publishers, and will be continuing to do so, whatever form that game engine comes in.

So why release it under the OGL? No matter what the system looks like, even if it diverged so far from D&D as to be utterly unrecognisable, many of the "nouns" of the system are rooted in D&D history -- spell names, monsters, and so on. "Magic Missile", for example, or "Ankheg", or a thousand other terms which were irrevocably made Open Gaming Content nearly twenty years ago and are a fundamental part of Pathfinder's identity as much as they are a part of D&D's identity. Pathfinder's "story" elements - those names - requires continuing access to those terms. That doesn't mean that the game system has anything to do with it, though, or that it needs to resemble 5E (or 4E, or 3E, or Fate, or WOIN, or any of several dozen OGL games). The OGL is a convenient and easy way to access those terms safely. There's no good reason not to use it.

I think it's safe to say at this point that Pathfinder 2nd Edition isn't a variation of D&D 5E. It's more likely to be an evolution of the 3.x ruleset, diverging from the path WotC took significantly, but influenced by many game design evolutions across the industry in the last decade. I'm sure you'll be able to see some 5E DNA in it, mixed in with the DNA of various other things, but it looks like Pathfinder 2nd Edition is very different to WotC's current game.

I mentioned that I'd be surprised to see Pathfinder 2 using even a single word from the 5E SRD. Erik Mona confirmed this. "It doesn't. This thing is far less 5e-inspired than people are assuming based on the first day of information we've dropped and the use of some similar terminology."

I mentioned the question of backward compatibility yesterday. Paizo says "While many of the rules of the game have changed, much of what made Pathfinder great has remained the same. The story of the game is unchanged, and in many cases, you can simply replace the old rules with their new counterpart without having to alter anything else about the adventure. As for individual rules, like your favorite spell or monster, most can be added with a simple conversion, changing a few numbers and rebalancing some of the mechanics."
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Jim Hauber

First Post
I would love to see a major, supported system out there where combat resolution is faster than Pathfinder or 5e -- a game that is less of a miniatures wargame and more of a roleplaying game. A game where someone who has never played an RPG before could sit down, quickly create a PC, and get right into play.

Savage Worlds?
 

GreyLord

Legend
Well, from the little I've heard it sounds like it is based off of 5e.

Spellsystem sounds the same...check

Unified systems that work similar to 5e but without the low numbers....check

I think they are trying to copy 5e and that's great. Since I already have 5e no need to check out their stuff.
 

Arilyn

Hero
Well, from the little I've heard it sounds like it is based off of 5e.

Spellsystem sounds the same...check

Unified systems that work similar to 5e but without the low numbers....check

I think they are trying to copy 5e and that's great. Since I already have 5e no need to check out their stuff.

If you listen to the podcast it is not at all like 5e. It's very much an updated PF.
 

mrm1138

Explorer
I would love to see a major, supported system out there where combat resolution is faster than Pathfinder or 5e -- a game that is less of a miniatures wargame and more of a roleplaying game. A game where someone who has never played an RPG before could sit down, quickly create a PC, and get right into play.
Savage Worlds?

I could almost agree except for the fact that Savage Worlds places so much emphasis on maps and minis and has all those little fiddly combat modifiers that come into play.
 

GreyLord

Legend
If you listen to the podcast it is not at all like 5e. It's very much an updated PF.

I just read the abbreviated thing here...it's absolutely 5e...they just don't want to admit it. They have taken the 5e chasis and basically added their own houserules (higher proficiency bonus for example).

I don't know why that bothers anyone. Heck, even with magic items (3 core magic items) it's a modification of 5e. Everything in the system seems to be a rip off of it.

Why do I want to play their 5e houseruled game when I already have 5e and my own houserules?

The only reason I can see of them not outright saying it's a rip off of 5e with their own houserules is twofold. They think it will upset their player base (probably true) if they just outright admit it. Two, they may be afraid of WotC ripping on them?

For me, it really doesn't matter, but I find it hilarious the way people are trying to twist themselves out of shape to try to say it's not 5e when it's obvious they basically took 5e as a chasis and expanded upon it with their own houserules.

For 5e players, it shouldn't really matter. We already have 5e. The only people it affects are Pathfinder players.
 

Savage Worlds?

Ironically Savage Worlds does tactical wargaming exceedingly well!

It's kind of a misnomer that mechanical complexity (esp. in combat) has anything to do with wargaming roots. Combat in RPGs got exponentially more detailed and elaborate over time, while actual wargames tend to remain painfully simple in this regard, with a lot more abstraction.

I think what the OP you were responding to is really saying is that he wants a "rules light" RPG like FATE or something, but is mistaken system complexity (esp. in combat) as counter productive to his goal of a mechanically simple system. But in truth, RP elements of the system are not automatically inversely tethered to the mechanical elements of the system.
 
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Shasarak

Banned
Banned
For me, it really doesn't matter, but I find it hilarious the way people are trying to twist themselves out of shape to try to say it's not 5e when it's obvious they basically took 5e as a chasis and expanded upon it with their own houserules.

Why did you not just say that you have seen the rules already?
 

I just read the abbreviated thing here...it's absolutely 5e...they just don't want to admit it. They have taken the 5e chasis and basically added their own houserules (higher proficiency bonus for example).

I don't know why that bothers anyone. Heck, even with magic items (3 core magic items) it's a modification of 5e. Everything in the system seems to be a rip off of it.

Why do I want to play their 5e houseruled game when I already have 5e and my own houserules?

The only reason I can see of them not outright saying it's a rip off of 5e with their own houserules is twofold. They think it will upset their player base (probably true) if they just outright admit it. Two, they may be afraid of WotC ripping on them?

For me, it really doesn't matter, but I find it hilarious the way people are trying to twist themselves out of shape to try to say it's not 5e when it's obvious they basically took 5e as a chasis and expanded upon it with their own houserules.

For 5e players, it shouldn't really matter. We already have 5e. The only people it affects are Pathfinder players.

I play 5E weekly and nothing I've read in the playtest material strikes me as 5Eish, other than their efforts to minimize runaway situational/gear modifiers...and if they do it like Starfinder, it will very much accomplish that while not feeling like 5E at all.

And speaking as a 5E regular, who left Pathfinder in 2013, I am kind of excited for this. I was tired of the bloat from Pathfinder five years ago, but I'm equally tired of the slow-roll 5E operates on. I would love a middle ground...a Goldilocks game, if you will, which gives me the happy median of the two.

OTOH your second to last paragraph seems to suggest you've actually got access to the playtest, so maybe you could post more specific details to show us how this is 5E chassis they are building from?
 
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