Pathfinder 2E Will Pathfinder 2nd Edition Be Based on D&D 5E?

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the nature of Pathfinder 2nd Edition, with some folks believing that it will be based on the D&D 5E rules engine, in a similar way to how the original Pathfinder was based of the D&D 3.5 rules engine. The evidence points to it not being so.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the nature of Pathfinder 2nd Edition, with some folks believing that it will be based on the D&D 5E rules engine, in a similar way to how the original Pathfinder was based of the D&D 3.5 rules engine. The evidence points to it not being so.
playtestbook.jpg



In accordance with Betteridge's Law of Headlines, the quick answer is "no".

Paizo's Erik Mona says "While it's reasonable to assume that developments in other games have gone into some of our thinking with this new edition, it'd be wrong to assume that we're explicitly trying to make the game more like 5e, or like any other game. What we're trying to do is make the very best version of Pathfinder that we can."

But decide for yourself! The demo game on the Glass Cannon podcast doesn't sound much like D&D 5th Edition at all, certainly not to me. But give a listen and draw your own conclusions.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition will surely borrow concepts from a whole range of games, and 5E will almost certainly be notable amongst them. But even from the little description we have so far, I'm seeing influences from things like Cubicle 7's The One Ring, and other games.

While Paizo has said that Pathfinder 2nd Edition will be release under the Open Gaming License (the OGL) it's important to note that the OGL has been around for nearly two decades, and dozens of games are released under it (Pathfinder 1, Fate, Mutants & Masterminds, WOIN), none of which have the slightest thing to do with D&D 5E. There isn't a "5E OGL"; there's just the OGL. It doesn't contain any rules; it's just a way to license content to third parties. Paizo uses the OGL to license its game engine to its large array of third party publishers, and will be continuing to do so, whatever form that game engine comes in.

So why release it under the OGL? No matter what the system looks like, even if it diverged so far from D&D as to be utterly unrecognisable, many of the "nouns" of the system are rooted in D&D history -- spell names, monsters, and so on. "Magic Missile", for example, or "Ankheg", or a thousand other terms which were irrevocably made Open Gaming Content nearly twenty years ago and are a fundamental part of Pathfinder's identity as much as they are a part of D&D's identity. Pathfinder's "story" elements - those names - requires continuing access to those terms. That doesn't mean that the game system has anything to do with it, though, or that it needs to resemble 5E (or 4E, or 3E, or Fate, or WOIN, or any of several dozen OGL games). The OGL is a convenient and easy way to access those terms safely. There's no good reason not to use it.

I think it's safe to say at this point that Pathfinder 2nd Edition isn't a variation of D&D 5E. It's more likely to be an evolution of the 3.x ruleset, diverging from the path WotC took significantly, but influenced by many game design evolutions across the industry in the last decade. I'm sure you'll be able to see some 5E DNA in it, mixed in with the DNA of various other things, but it looks like Pathfinder 2nd Edition is very different to WotC's current game.

I mentioned that I'd be surprised to see Pathfinder 2 using even a single word from the 5E SRD. Erik Mona confirmed this. "It doesn't. This thing is far less 5e-inspired than people are assuming based on the first day of information we've dropped and the use of some similar terminology."

I mentioned the question of backward compatibility yesterday. Paizo says "While many of the rules of the game have changed, much of what made Pathfinder great has remained the same. The story of the game is unchanged, and in many cases, you can simply replace the old rules with their new counterpart without having to alter anything else about the adventure. As for individual rules, like your favorite spell or monster, most can be added with a simple conversion, changing a few numbers and rebalancing some of the mechanics."
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Tony Vargas

Legend
The description they gave for monster design sounds decidedly more 4e than 5e.
"We've moved away from strict monster construction formulas based off type and Hit Dice. Instead, we start by deciding on the creature's rough level and role in the game, then select statistics that make it a balanced and appropriate part of the game."
5e monster designs have been decidedly more 4e & 1e than they've been 3e.

I think any similarity of PF2 to 5e will be convergent development. They're not cribbing from eachother, but they are both following trends in a community utterly dominated by the legacy of D&D.
 

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GreyLord

Legend
I play 5E weekly and nothing I've read in the playtest material strikes me as 5Eish, other than their efforts to minimize runaway situational/gear modifiers...and if they do it like Starfinder, it will very much accomplish that while not feeling like 5E at all.

And speaking as a 5E regular, who left Pathfinder in 2013, I am kind of excited for this. I was tired of the bloat from Pathfinder five years ago, but I'm equally tired of the slow-roll 5E operates on. I would love a middle ground...a Goldilocks game, if you will, which gives me the happy median of the two.

OTOH your second to last paragraph seems to suggest you've actually got access to the playtest, so maybe you could post more specific details to show us how this is 5E chassis they are building from?

Obviously those who have the playtest are under an NDA, but their comments have basically shown...

The main way it works is the same as 5e, but instead of a level bonus that goes to 6, they have it go to 20. Same idea, just goes higher.

Spells actually work the exact same way...calls credibility when they state that they created it independently...I'd say they just want to avoid conflicts with WotC.

Magic items being restricted to 3 items...sound familiar?

They took the 5e chasis and expanded it...it's pretty obvious.

The question is WHY they don't want to say it.

Also...Morrus should have held off on the PF being moved the older editions, my D&D forums are suddenly rife with all this PF stuff now!!!

:rant:
 

GreyLord

Legend
5e monster designs have been decidedly more 4e & 1e than they've been 3e.

I think any similarity of PF2 to 5e will be convergent development. They're not cribbing from eachother, but they are both following trends in a community utterly dominated by the legacy of D&D.

That is ONE thing I've heard that is divergent from the 5e focus...the monster designs are more akin to what WotC did with 4e than what is with 5e.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
That is ONE thing I've heard that is divergent from the 5e focus...the monster designs are more akin to what WotC did with 4e than what is with 5e.
Seriously, 5e & 4e monster design approaches are surprisingly similar (I've DM'd both eds pretty heavily) - it's probably one of the ways 5e pulled back from 4e the least.
Odd.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Official stance is that P2e is not based on 5e. I'm sure that's accurate

But after reading everything, hearing everything, watching everything..I think what you're going to get is a game aimed at the 5e players that like more crunch and want the superhero feel as opposed to the bounded accuracy feel.

Of course, give WoTC a year of reviewing what Paizo is doing with their public playtest and they'll adapt too.

Good times to be a D&D player but I really think the best thing both companies could do is just go back to supporting each other.

Be well
KB
 



Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I personally hope it evolves/refines the 3.X system. Pathfinder 2Ed based on 4th or 5th is not a concept that interests me in the least.
 

Ironically Savage Worlds does tactical wargaming exceedingly well!

It's kind of a misnomer that mechanical complexity (esp. in combat) has anything to do with wargaming roots. Combat in RPGs got exponentially more detailed and elaborate over time, while actual wargames tend to remain painfully simple in this regard, with a lot more abstraction.

I think what the OP you were responding to is really saying is that he wants a "rules light" RPG like FATE or something, but is mistaken system complexity (esp. in combat) as counter productive to his goal of a mechanically simple system. But in truth, RP elements of the system are not automatically inversely tethered to the mechanical elements of the system.

My actual point was not about complexity per se, it was about speed of play and the ability of new players to quickly create a character and join the game. I totally agree with your point about wargaming roots. 1e had its flaws of course but actual play was fast. And bringing a new player in was rolling a few dice and buying whatever equipment you could afford. The hardest part was thinking of a name.

I am a fan of Fate but wouldn't necessarily call it rules light. Much time in playing Fate is spent talking about Fate mechanics, at least until one becomes very knowledgeable. I prefer rpgs where players speak in plain Engish (or their preferred language of choice) not game-ese. Although to Fate's credit combat can be pretty speedy. Although character creation can be stickly. Have you ever tried to think of an aspect?

Players today like lots of cool options. I understand that, it gives them agency and interesting ways to play. But too often when I tell a player it's their turn I just hear a deep exhale as they go into think mode...
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Will Pathfinder 2nd Edition Be Based on D&D 5E?

Good times to be a D&D player but I really think the best thing both companies could do is just go back to supporting each other.

Competition benefits consumers. At the moment, WotC has no real competition. I don’t know if PF2 will be able to provide that, but I also don’t think that the two biggest companies joining forces is good for consumers.
 

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