D&D 4E Will Rule Zero be in 4E?

[Pale Jackal]

The thing I hate about BW life paths is that some choices are clearly better than others. It wasn't designed for balance... admittedly, you can always just choose the better life paths, but that can clash with your character image. I'm also not sure how I feel about the noble life paths just seeming to be better (I haven't taken a good look recently.)

As for BW's stance on rule zero: it's heart is in the right place. I don't think it limits GM freedom in any significant way. Don't require an excessive number of rolls... and what else?

 

[Baumi]

Wasn't Rule Zero in OD&D "Be Fair"?

 

[StarFyre]

it is required

Rule 0, is required and any game without it just isn't as flexible.

A situation will always occur that there is no written rule for.

Our campaign has tons, due to the strange stuff, and sometimes simulationist level our games reach.

An example, my players were about 2 miles down in this underground complex...within a mountain at a high elevation. SOmething down near the lowest level, caused about 90% of 1 mile radius worth of the complex to turn into water...yes...all the walls, etc turned to water as well as items that failed a save. SO now, players who were 6 levels up from the center of this...the ceiling, sides, floor turned to water. Due to the empty space though below...all the water fell with them in it. Now...they are in a flooded complex with water pouring out if there is a slope/space for it to go.

How would you deal with the upper levels/dirt possibly collapsing onto the group since the lower level support is all gone? Some of it could be built into the sides of the mountain rock that they won't fall...others are being held by other rocks and loose dirt, but now dirt will start falling. But this won't happen instantly for everything. Within about 10 minutes I imagine, as stuff starts dislodging, it willall come down...

I had to quickly make up rules for it so i winged it all and it worked out great.

Then after i got home the next morning, I wrote up whatever i could remember to use it as a similar rule if something like that happens again.

Yes, if you play the game like a MMO - go here, kill creature, take treasure, go there, kill creatures, take treasure, yes, most Rule 0 may not be needed....

but everyone else...it's part of the fun.

Sanjay

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I don't know of a single RPG, including Burning Wheel, where the DM can't break or bend the rules on occasions if he feels it's necessary. Since when do we need the designer's permission?

I prefer to be as consistant as possible, but a DM's gotta do what's a DM's gotta do.

 

[Ranger REG]

Rule Zero is a metaphor, and a valid and real one in all RPGs. It's a myth that it is on paper in 3.x.

It may have been unwritten rule since the first written ruleset is published, but to have it memorialized on paper would be a constant reminder to everyone, including rules lawyers, who sometimes tend to forget the DM's word is final.

 

[FallenTabris]

I thought Rule Zero was about changing the rules to suit the play style of the DM and his group. Like removing Psionics or ignoring spell components. Most of you are saying Rule 0 is more about 'fudging' things when something happens outside of the expectations of the written rules. A good rule system will take into account landslides, body checks, or just plain old 'whoops, magic done changed everything into Jello'. If not directly, then indirectly with a stunt system or simple dice roll for survival. Third edition did that with Difficulty Classes and the various Saves. And what could not be handled with either of those could be resolved purely by narrative. That isn't Rule Zero to me just good advice for new DMs.

 

[HeinorNY]

Do we need a Rule 0 in order to have a Rule 0?

 

[korjik]

IME, Rule Zero is more about abusing DM than flexibility.

BW is flexible because it is conflict-resolution based (BTW, I hate BW character creation, the so-called lifepaths).

D&D 4E is less task-resolution and more conflict-resolution than it's predecessors, hand-waving will be much less needed to keep the game running smoothly.

I would say you have a pretty poor DM if the only time you see rule zero is to be abused. Whenever I end up using it, it is generally because the players have been rolling poorly and I need to fudge to avoid a TPK, or some other result that will totally derail the game.

Before someone gets on me for being too leinent, I only get to play like once a month. Having to spend an entire months game time rerolling characters and everyone being pissed cause they all died in a fight they should have won is pretty counterproductive to continued play.

 

[Logos7]

I always say rule 0 more like saying

as this is a game text, and you don't really know how A> You where intended to play this text B> that A>'s way of playing is better their will always be an amount of interpretation involved. This means that sometimes you might have disagreements over interpretation and in those cases the gm generally is allowed final say.

its not some final holy relic of good game handed to us by someone of gygaxian lineage, to any extent that a text is interpreted, their will be interpretation. Its not something that needs text or embelished design philosophy.

 

[Mistwell]

This is a question for the 4E designers or someone at WotC. Hopefully someone can get permission to answer it.

Basically, will Rule Zero (in other words, a foundational rule stating that the DM is allowed to make on-the-fly rulings, change or break rules in creative ways, et. al, in order to make the game more fun) be in the 4E Player's Handbook?

I think the answer to this question will tell us a lot about the direction in which D&D is headed.

Thanks.

Rule 0 is a paradox. It's a rule saying all rules are changed by the DM, which includes the rule you are reading.

I never saw the point of putting that "rule" in the rulebook. It's one of those rules that de-facto exists in your game by the nature of the game itself. I just don't see how printing it in the rule book could possibly change anything for anyone.