D&D 4E Will Rule Zero be in 4E?

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Can someone explain how Rule 0 could be excluded from D&D?

IMO, it is not possible. Therefore, Rule 0 will always be because it is plain common sense. There is no point to put into print as a "foundational rule" (whatever that means.

Besides, not putting it into print just saves the RPGA's Living Campaigns from having to explicitly revoke it.

 

[1of3]

Rule 0 is a paradox. It's a rule saying all rules are changed by the DM, which includes the rule you are reading.

I never saw the point of putting that "rule" in the rulebook. It's one of those rules that de-facto exists in your game by the nature of the game itself. I just don't see how printing it in the rule book could possibly change anything for anyone.

You're right on the first part. If such a rule is assumed, it's actually the only rule. (Self-reference excluded, of course.)

As for the latter, you (and some others on this thread as well) jumped to conclusion. De facto, there must be a way to change the game, make house-rules and adapt the game to your needs. "You" in this case is the group of people playing, and here you see your mistake: The entirety of the participants is in a position to change the rules. In fact, they created the rules by agreeing to play the game in first place.

Of course, the group can delegate changing rules minutiae to certain persons, say a GM. But the fundamental principle in place is the authority of the whole group.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Where are you getting that Rule Zero is "The DM may change the rules at his whim"?

Rule Zero (according to 3e) is
"0. CHECK WITH YOUR DUNGEON MASTER
Your Dungeon Master (DM) may have house rules or campaign
standards that vary from the standard rules. You might also want to
know what character types the other players are playing so that you
can create a character that fits in well with the group."

So it's just about making a character that fits with the DMs house rules and the other players.

The same thing is in the 3.5e PHB, but it's not numbered.

Geoff.

 

[Li Shenron]

This is a question for the 4E designers or someone at WotC. Hopefully someone can get permission to answer it.

Basically, will Rule Zero (in other words, a foundational rule stating that the DM is allowed to make on-the-fly rulings, change or break rules in creative ways, et. al, in order to make the game more fun) be in the 4E Player's Handbook?

I think the answer to this question will tell us a lot about the direction in which D&D is headed.

Thanks.

Why shouldn't it be?

Then of course, even if it's there, many gamers will still have a strong opinion that you must worship the rules.

 

[Mr Jack]

Where are you getting that Rule Zero is "The DM may change the rules at his whim"?

It says right at the start of the 3e DMG "You get to decide how the rules work, which rules to use, and how strictly to adhere to them. That kind of in charge."

 

[Mercule]

"Rule 0" existed prior to being put in print. The very nature of table-top RPGs enables and demands "Rule 0". I figured that out when I was 10 and started building my own home-brew setting.

 

[Satori5000]

I see no way to run a game without Rule 0. If one of the players wants to do something that isnt specifically addressed in the rules, i am not going to say,"No, its not in the rules so you cant do it." I am going to come up with something either on my own or with help from other players/gm to get it done.

Player: I want to swing off this rope and jump behind BBEG.
GM: Give me a minute to figure out a DC.
Pause....
GM: Since you are swinging X feet, i will give the running jump benifits, the DC is XX.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Obviously Rule 0 does not need to be printed to remain in effect. Its absence can't force anyone to stick to what's printed.

Of course, Rule 0 can be used in chess if you want to - if both players say "yeah, I'm okay with moving a pawn horizontally in this circumstance," nothing will prevent them from doing so. But despite this possibility being present in every game of chess you've ever played, how often have you used it? (Okay, I'm talking with gamers here, so probably once or twice, but you get the idea...)

My point is, when you commit something like Rule 0 to print, it alerts people to and encourages a different style of gameplay. Granted, it's not the only aspect of table-top role-playing that does this, but it's a good foundational one. It doesn't change the way you can or can't play, but it changes the way games will probably be played.

It's not that you'll say "it's not in the rules, you can't do it" to the player's running rope jump, it's that the player is less inclined to come up with that move in the first place. It's natural when playing a game to consider one's available options at each step; if the very first, foundational option you were given when using the system is one that allowed for complete creativity, you'll be more inclined to employ your creativity. Which, by my standards, leads to more fun games.

 

[Blackwind]

A lot of people are saying that we don't need Rule Zero in the books because everyone knows it already. It's an intrinsic part of the game.

But I would say that actually, the only reason why we all know it is that it's a tradition that has been passed down to us, either orally in writing, as well as implicitly in the way that others have taught us to play the game.

Part of WotC's goal in publishing 4E is to bring new people into the hobby. And the way those people are going to play--the way that D&D will be played now and in the future--is going to be influenced by what the rulebooks do and do not say.

I've already seen this to a certain extent in 3.x. Players who feel entitled to use anything in a WotC book, and complain if their DM won't allow it. DMs who feel like they have to follow the rules slavishly, stopping the game every fifteen minutes to look something up. I'm not saying it's 3E's fault, it's just a trend I've noticed.

Including Rule Zero in the core books, explicitly and prominently, would go a long way toward solving these kinds of problems.

 

[Nylanfs]

Umm, is this a serious question? If not then April Fools is tomorrow. If it isn't then I'm glad that the Gaming Correctly Action Commity will be coming to your house the very instant that you make any alteration, even if it's correcting a mis-spelling.