Will save redundant?

[psychognome]

If you are using a basic modern setting with no FX, will this make the Will save completely useless? At the moment the only application of the save is resisting some of the Charismatic Hero's talents (captivate, dazzle, taunt), using of some Insightful Hero talents (aware and intuition), resisting the Frightful Presence feat, resisiting some of the Personality's Special Abilities (winning smile compelling performance), and resisting some of the Negotiator's Special Abilities (talk down, sow distrust). In my opinion, these are all quite specialized applications of the Will save, and they heavily depend on the conditions.

Moreover, I was surprised to find out that Intimidation doesn't depend on your Will save, but on your Level. Now, what do you think is the reasoning behind this? It might be the "I'm high-level, there's no way that little runt's going to scare me," but I'm still not convinced. Unless you can convince me that this ruling's better, I'm going to Rule Zero this and change it from a Level Check into a Will Save against fear.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is a house rule that many people think of, but there are a few things to consider:
1st:
Will Saves increase with level, but not as fast as the level itself (usually 2/3 or 1/3 of the level plus a small bonus or even penalty if you have a low Wisdom Score).
Intimidate is a skill and can be increased by 1 point every level. If maxed, it is 3 points above your actual level (max skill rank is 3+level!), allowing you to compensate even lower charisma scores.
Even a totally uncharismatic character might have an easy time to intimidate a much more powerful foe if he maxed Intimidate.

2nd:
Every character faces dangerous foes in his life, usually this is the way to gain experience. But the Will Save increases differently for different character classes.
A high level Strong Hero might be able to face a bear in hand to hand (or claw) combat and win, something a Dedicated Hero would have difficult to survive at all.
But a Charismatic Hero could intimidate the Strong Hero better than the Dedicated one.
Both characters have something they might fear (maybe the Strong a higher authority the Charismatic Hero might have access to, while the Dedicated would feel threatened if the Charismatic Hero would explain he had more firepower - or a Brown Bear )

All character classes have weaknesses and strengths that someone trying to intimidate one would have to use, so a Will Save seems not really appropriate...

3rd:
There are probably fewer needs for Will Saves if you do not use FX, but remember, but there are still some.
Without FX, there aren`t many saves needed:
Reflex Save is only interesting against Autofire and grenades, and depending on your campaign, that might not be used that often. In an FX campaign, several nasty spells require this save.
Fortitude Saves are needed for massive damage and poisons. The last one is quite rarely used, I think. In an FX campaign, some very dangerous and "crippling" spells require a Fortitude Save.


Mustrum Ridcully

 

[psychognome]

Ah, I can see the reason for Intimidate being resisted by a Level Check, and even the redundancy of the Will save makes more sense now. I was just thrown off by the Will save's description in the d20 Modern book, which stated that it is mainly used against FX abilities and mind-influencing effects. I couldn't come up with that many different mind-influencing effects that PC's might come by, but neither can I come up with that many situations where Fort and Ref saves are necessary. Thanks!

 

[takyris]

If you are using a basic modern setting with no FX, will this make the Will save completely useless?

I don't think so. You just gave several examples of possible uses, and there are a bunch more that you can come up with even in a no-FX world. Let's see -- off the top of my head:

Resisting torture

Not getting spooked by a constant barrage of gunfire

Avoiding hypnosis or subliminal suggestions

Flying or driving when Bad Things Are Happening (tornado, fiery inferno, hurricane) all around you and trying to drive you crazy

Not taking a -2 penalty from an irritating, barely audible noise designed specifically to cause disorientation, headaches, and nausea.

Resisting other mental warfare techniques (like the police blasting out bad music in hostage situations)

Not throwing down your gun when you see that the evil bad guy has your friend/comrade/lover/spouse/child as a hostage.

Continuing to fight even after seeing your friend/comrade/lover/spouse/child being killed because you refused to throw down your gun.

"But Tacky, you idiot," you say, "all those things could already be happening in an FX game, and they don't require Will saves? You just roleplay that your character has the willpower to do it or not."

Ah, but here's the thing:

You're doing a non-FX campaign.

You can add and adapt the rules to keep the existing level of complexity when taking out some other element. For example, in a Middle Ages game that did not have magic, I'd have no problem making different types of nonmagical bonuses for having a certain type of sword, a certain type of grip, a certain type of pommel, a certain type of crossguard, and so on. I would introduce that level of complexity in order to keep the game fun and varied for people. People like variety and feeling powerful in interesting ways -- in the Middle Ages, no-magic game, that could be "A-ha, I'm impossible to disarm because I've got this grip and this basket-hilt!" In a game with magic, I'd never introduce that level of complexity. It's silly. But in a no-magic game, it'd be worth it.

Same here. In a magic game, magic is your metaphor. People in a magic game rarely fall under the bad guy's sway just because he's really persuasive and well-spoken. They fall under his sway because he has magic, which in this case is a metaphor for being a smooth talker who can get under people's skin.

So, in a magic game, your evil bad guy casts Charm Person.

In a non-magic game, he talks up the guy, gets under their skin with the Dedicated Hero Insightful stuff, hits their weak points with some Charismatic fast-talking, and eventually the GM would have the target make a Will save or be "befuddled and confused. Nothing seems clear anymore, but the evil bad guy understands your pain, he's trying to make it better. He's your true light now." And so on.

Would I do that in a non-magic game? Unlikely. The players would be ticked because "That would never happen to my guy unless magic were involved." But in a game where there is no metaphor to handle these character-defining moments, you can and should add other mechanical checks (rolling the dice) in order to make Will saves genuinely important.

Otherwise, everyone will roleplay that their character has nerves of steel and an iron will and a clear head even in the direst of situations -- which is about as good, roleplaying-wise, as saying, "Yes, but being an unbeatable swordsman who never gets hit even when people try to shoot him at point-blank range is part of my character concept!"

 

[Skinwalker]

Re: Re: Will save redundant?

Not getting spooked by a constant barrage of gunfire

Takyris, I like the intent of your message. However, I just *had* to point out the irony/humor in this particular example. Consider for a moment that Will would be the weak save for classes like the Soldier and Gunslinger. Or picture the Tough hero screaming like a little girl whenever he hears a gun go off.

 

[takyris]

Heh. Excellent point.

I miswrote that a fair amount -- I didn't mean that you had to make a Will save every time a gun went off. I meant that if you were in a trench and the bad guys were consciously trying to make you panic with heavy bombardments until you finally freak out and start shouting, "Game over, man, game over!" and firing your machine gun at the walls randomly. Strong or Tough heroes shouldn't get spooked by one gunshot, no, but I'd certainly make it a Will save to avoid shell-shock -- traditionally, it IS the ones with faith and willpower, rather than the ones who were the best shots, that managed to not go over the edge into 'Nam-flashback-land.

But yeah... in those situations, I'd give the Gunslinger and Soldier some kind of situational bonus for knowing a whole lot about guns, just to avoid the best gunfighters in the game being petrified of their own weapons.

 

[psychognome]

takyris, you've gone a long way to give the Will save at least some use in my games. In the end it's up to the DMs interpretation, yeah?

BTW, I really liked the example of using bad music as a form of psychological warfare. I wonder how my players would react if I popped one of my sister's Spice Girls records into the CD player and told them to roll Will saves?