Will save while unconscious

[Trouvere]

What about mind-affecting spells? Does an unconscious person have a mind to be affected? Specifically, what about Charm Person?

 

[sumi]

What about mind-affecting spells? Does an unconscious person have a mind to be affected? Specifically, what about Charm Person?

May be his subconsious is fighting for the right to choose who his friends are!

 

[Trouvere]

May be his subconsious is fighting for the right to choose who his friends are!

Yes, indeed. I could see it as you say (give him a Will save), or argue that his mind is defenceless (so no save at all), or that without a conscious mind, there's nothing for the Charm Person spell to twist (immune to the spell). What in fact does the RAW imply? The situation almost came up in the LEW game I'm in, where we considered having our psion charm an unconscious enemy wizard. He woke up, and talked anyway, so we did not need to.

 

[mvincent]

What in fact does the RAW imply?

The spell functions as normal: it is saved against as normal, and will be useful if the target wakes before the spell's duration expires.

The same applies to anyone that falls unconscious while under the effect of a mind-affecting effect, then re-awakens.

 

[Trouvere]

Fair enough - related question, then. Is 'unconscious' the Will save equivalent to 'paralyzed' or 'helpless' for Reflex saves? When paralyzed or helpless, you have a Dex of 0, and thus a -5 penalty. Wouldn't it be reasonable for an unconscious character to have an effective Wis of 0 (well, of course some unconscious characters will indeed have a Wis of 0 due to ability damage, but a lot more will just be in negative HP) and a -5 penalty on Will saves?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is 'unconscious' the Will save equivalent to 'paralyzed' or 'helpless' for Reflex saves?

No.

When paralyzed or helpless, you have a Dex of 0, and thus a -5 penalty.

Remember, also, you need room to move in order to use Evasion, as with a Reflex save for any creature.

If a creature needs room to move to make a Reflex save, and he's paralyzed, is any amount of room 'room to move'?

-Hyp.

 

[Flynn]

In my opinion, even sleeping people get full Will saves, because the subconscious is a powerful thing, and remains vigilant even when a person is asleep or in a coma. (Not a rule-based answer, but my own personal thoughts.) To my knowledge, the RAW do not drop Will saves for sleeping people, so the Will saves remain as normal.

And in regards to the whole repeated use of a helm of opposite alignment scenario, that sounds a lot like metagaming to me, because that's just playing the odds and the game mechanics instead of roleplaying. (Who would do that kind of thing in-game if they didn't have knowledge of the rules? No one would, in my opinion.) I wouldn't like it if the PCs did that, and that kind of gaming is the reason why I have the following rule in my games:

"Anything you can do, I can do later..."

My players know that if they do not control themselves and they cheese the rules, then they have to deal with the same kind of thing happening to them in the future. Yeah, you get your one moment in the sun, and then it's likely to happen to you. So, if the PCs want their characters in that situation to make a saving throw only once, they'll only use the helmet on their target once. If they want to metagame, the next time they are captured by a bad guy, they'll get the multiple helmet treatment, too, but with something more appropriate to the story or character's situation.

Sorry, but metagaming like that is a pet peeve of mine, as I feel it shows no respect for the roleplaying aspect of the game. My apologies if any would consider my comments above to be inappropriate.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

... how would you know if it worked?

By the evil sneer that comes across their face?

Or the goody-two-shoes, deer-caught-in-the-headlights look if they're good?

 

[mvincent]

Is 'unconscious' the Will save equivalent to 'paralyzed' or 'helpless' for Reflex saves?

Not in D&D

Wouldn't it be reasonable for an unconscious character to have an effective Wis of 0

Not according to the rules, and not in my opinion (that might imply that sleeping people are more susceptable to influence).

you need room to move in order to use Evasion, as with a Reflex save for any creature.

Geez Hyp... that's been hashed out before at length:
- Per some DM's (like Hyp): you cannot make reflex saves while unconscious.
- Per the FAQ and RPGA: you can.

Take your pick (best to inform your players though if they possibly have different expectations). Fair enough?

 

[Hypersmurf]

- Per the FAQ and RPGA: you can.

But per the DMG, you can't make a Reflex save unless you have room to move.

How that interacts with unconsciousness is, I'll agree, debatable. How it interacts with being bound, for example, isn't; a character who is bound does not have room to move, and thus cannot make a Reflex save per the DMG.

-Hyp.