Will save while unconscious

[mvincent]

But per the DMG, you can't make a Reflex save unless you have room to move.

More precisely: that was implied in an off-handed comment made in the description of evasion (which probably shouldn't be giving otherwise unspecified rules for reflex saves). Conversely, the core rules do unambiguously allow for reflex saves for unattended magic items (even though they have no method of moving on their own). You've previously said that you don't allow those items reflex saves (which is fine, but contrary to the actual rules).

Again: geez Hyp: it's been hashed out before. I have no vested interest in how anyone plays (play as you like, I say), it's just that giving people advice that is contrary to the official stance (without at least letting them know such) might set them up for surprises and arguments.

 

[Hypersmurf]

More precisely: that was implied in an off-handed comment made in the description of evasion

It was stated in the description of evasion.

You've previously said that you don't allow those items reflex saves (which is fine, but contrary to the actual rules).

I thought I'd previously said that since they're not creatures, they aren't subject to a rule that you need room to move in order to use Evasion, as with a Reflex save for any creature...?

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

I thought I'd previously said that since they're not creatures, they aren't subject to a rule that you need room to move in order to use Evasion, as with a Reflex save for any creature...?

Unfortunately the thread is no longer available. My e-mail archive had you saying "I'd personally disallow Reflex saves to items unless
they had some way of moving, as well... but I'd realise that it's only creatures that the rules forbid it for ", so I possibly gleaned your intended reply from the first part (when, in context of the thread, the emphasis was likely on the second part). I believe we also discussed intelligent magic items (which are considered creatures/constructs), but I acknowledge your point.

 

[3catcircus]

Hmm.

Would you give someone a reflex save if they were unconscious or asleep? No? Then why would you give them a will save? The only save I'd let them try and make while asleep or unconscious is fortitude since that reflects your ability to withstand bodily harm vice mental harm.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Would you give someone a reflex save if they were unconscious or asleep? No?

Many people (including the FAQ) say yes... albeit with an effective Dex of 0 (-5 penalty).

I say no, because with an effective Dex of 0, you cannot move, therefore no amount of room is 'room to move' (required for a Reflex save for any creature, per the DMG).

But you'll find that denying a Reflex save for the unconscious or sleeping is far from universal.

As far as Will saves go, I'd point out the Nightmare spell, which can only be cast on a sleeping creature, and is Will Negates...

(The Nightmare spell also has another note which relates to this topic - the caster automatically fails any saving throw if he enters a trance while waiting for his target to fall asleep...)

-Hyp.

 

[3catcircus]

Many people (including the FAQ) say yes... albeit with an effective Dex of 0 (-5 penalty).

I say no, because with an effective Dex of 0, you cannot move, therefore no amount of room is 'room to move' (required for a Reflex save for any creature, per the DMG).

But you'll find that denying a Reflex save for the unconscious or sleeping is far from universal.

As far as Will saves go, I'd point out the Nightmare spell, which can only be cast on a sleeping creature, and is Will Negates...

(The Nightmare spell also has another note which relates to this topic - the caster automatically fails any saving throw if he enters a trance while waiting for his target to fall asleep...)

-Hyp.

Dex 0 is just as good as no save allowed, I would think.

As far as the Nightmare spell - I'd houserule that it is different because the spell is *specifically* designed to affect the sleeping mind - the subconscious - while other spells with a will save are designed to affect an alert, conscious mind.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Dex 0 is just as good as no save allowed, I would think.

We take a paralyzed 10th-level fighter and a paralyzed 10th-level rogue, and put them in the slide zone of a cave-in.

The paralyzed fighter has a 75% chance of being buried and taking damage. The paralyzed rogue only has a 60% chance of being buried and taking damage.

A few years later, that same rogue at 20th level is once again paralyzed and put in the slide zone of a cave-in. This time, he only has a 35% chance of being buried and taking damage.

As far as the Nightmare spell - I'd houserule that it is different...

As is your right, of course.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

We take a paralyzed 10th-level fighter and a paralyzed 10th-level rogue, and put them in the slide zone of a cave-in.

The paralyzed fighter has a 75% chance of being buried and taking damage. The paralyzed rogue only has a 60% chance of being buried and taking damage.

Everyone knows that rogues always choose the best locations to become paralyzed . That seems about par for D&D. It doesn't seem hugely different from an unconscious 10th level commoner easily surviving falls, fireballs, being sat on by dragons etc. that would turn an unconscious 1st level commoner into a fine, red mist.

"It's good to be the king"