Will the Magic System be shown the door?

[Henry]

Maybe. I hope that's still true, and doesn't have to do with one or more sacred cows left by the roadside.



If people keep winding up getting back their hardest-hitting powers and all their resources every minute, and it becomes the default assumption of play, then yes, they will have done that very thing. I have this vision of Feng Shui characters recovering all their resources at the end of each scene, and having no reason to rest, recover, conserve, or even think about what they're doing, except hit a problem with their biggest hammer. Great for the sole goal of kicking butt, but for any other roleplaying need out there it tends to drown it out. Hopefully there'll be a happy medium, but it's possible there won't.

No, but the days of "I cast Magic Missile!" followed by, "Well, I'm headed to the crapper-- gimme a shout when we get a chance to rest..." might be gone.

Is that really method of play to emphasize, though - "If I'm not goin' nova, I'm bored"? As you noted, MMORPG's do that better than RPG's ever can!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Is that really method of play to emphasize, though - "If I'm not goin' nova, I'm bored"? As you noted, MMORPG's do that better than RPG's ever can!

I trust that WOTC's designers can navigate between those two nearly-indistinguishable poles of, ""I'm completely spent and can't contribute in any meaningful way..." and "I'm going nova in every encounter!"

 

[Henry]

I trust that WOTC's designers can navigate between those two nearly-indistinguishable poles of, ""I'm completely spent and can't contribute in any meaningful way..." and "I'm going nova in every encounter!"

I would say I trust 'em to do so, but I want them to make sure they know there's a desire for that middle ground! I wouldn't mind if it were something like the reserve feat system, where a wizard can light his pipe without straining, or can fling flame bolts like an archer can fling arrows. But that flame bolt doesn't need to be the same as flinging off his top-level spells all the time, the way a Martial Adept can flourish his sword once and get all his maneuvers back, or the way a Jedi will breathe deep for 60 seconds and be able to lift X-wings again.

 

[thedungeondelver]

You know, I want to be careful to avoid an edition rant here but in 3rd edition isn't it so that "magic-users" aren't restricted in weapons that they can use? For chrissake, use a bow, throw a spear, get ready with a net or whip, stand by the flaming oil, holy water, bandages or potions for fighters who go down.

I mean, hell's bells even in D&D (original, 1974 edition) magic-users have things they can do in combat. Every player doesn't need to have a per-encounter "Death Blossom" mode where they're the center of the universe, dealing out death to the unworthy. Life - even fantasy life - is like that sometimes, y'know.

Playing magic-users in 1e, I've had great fun with sleep, then spending the rest of the adventure throwing darts and burning oil. Low to-hit chances? You betcha. But the law of averages is going to catch up with the kobolds, orcs, giant rats and so forth sooner or later.

More to the point, by the time a low-level magic user has to "drop the bomb" and expend his spell (or, in the case of latter day D&D, spells), in all probability the situation has become dire to the point of the rest of the party needing to retire as well. The cleric's used his or her healing spell(s), the fighters are dead on their feet, the theif (excuse me, rogue) isn't much of a fighter to begin with - by the juncture at which the magic-user says "Yeah, gotta lower the boom on these guys. Gotta use my one spell." the whole notion of "Well, now we have to wait around for the magic user." is a bit superfluous: everyone in the party needs a rest. Everyone.

No, the magic system in D&D, in any D&D works just fine.

 

[JohnSnow]

I would say I trust 'em to do so, but I want them to make sure they know there's a desire for that middle ground! I wouldn't mind if it were something like the reserve feat system, where a wizard can light his pipe without straining, or can fling flame bolts like an archer can fling arrows. But that flame bolt doesn't need to be the same as flinging off his top-level spells all the time, the way a Martial Adept can flourish his sword once and get all his maneuvers back, or the way a Jedi will breathe deep for 60 seconds and be able to lift X-wings again.

For the record, since we haven't seen the ability that allows a Jedi to move X-Wings yet, I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that "move X-Wing" is a Jedi power that can be used an unlimited number of times a day.

What if it's more like:
Power - Move Large Object: You can use the force to move objects up to X weight. They may be used as if they were hurled objects and do damage based on their size. See table below.

Alter Talent Tree
Size Matters Not - By spending a Force point, the character can Use the Force to move exceedingly large objects.

So you can do Darth Vader on Cloud City, or Dooku and Yoda on Geonosis, but if you want to Yoda on Dagobah, Yoda against the droid army in The Clone Wars animated series, or Yoda and Sidious on Coruscant, you gotta start spending Force Points.

We just don't know yet HOW it works.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

But that flame bolt doesn't need to be the same as flinging off his top-level spells all the time, the way a Martial Adept can flourish his sword once and get all his maneuvers back.

I also hated that mechanic. Super cheesy.

 

[JohnSnow]

You know, I want to be careful to avoid an edition rant here but in 3rd edition isn't it so that "magic-users" aren't restricted in weapons that they can use? For chrissake, use a bow, throw a spear, get ready with a net or whip, stand by the flaming oil, holy water, bandages or potions for fighters who go down.

I mean, hell's bells even in D&D (original, 1974 edition) magic-users have things they can do in combat. Every player doesn't need to have a per-encounter "Death Blossom" mode where they're the center of the universe, dealing out death to the unworthy. Life - even fantasy life - is like that sometimes, y'know.

Playing magic-users in 1e, I've had great fun with sleep, then spending the rest of the adventure throwing darts and burning oil. Low to-hit chances? You betcha. But the law of averages is going to catch up with the kobolds, orcs, giant rats and so forth sooner or later.

More to the point, by the time a low-level magic user has to "drop the bomb" and expend his spell (or, in the case of latter day D&D, spells), in all probability the situation has become dire to the point of the rest of the party needing to retire as well. The cleric's used his or her healing spell(s), the fighters are dead on their feet, the theif (excuse me, rogue) isn't much of a fighter to begin with - by the juncture at which the magic-user says "Yeah, gotta lower the boom on these guys. Gotta use my one spell." the whole notion of "Well, now we have to wait around for the magic user." is a bit superfluous: everyone in the party needs a rest. Everyone.

No, the magic system in D&D, in any D&D works just fine.

Nonsense. You had your rant, now I'll have mine.

A Spellcaster shouldn't have to throw darts to be effective. Not when it's a simple matter to say:

Granted Power - Eldritch Dart: A spellcaster may throw a bolt of magic energy that does 1d4 damage on a successful hit.

There. Now you're effective, and you actually seem like a spellcaster. Not a guy with a crossbow who can pull one decent magical effect a day out of his ass. There's a reason D&D has always had a "sweet spot." It's the point at which spellcasters have enough spells to be effective as long as everyone has hit points.

Many wizards spend their magic missile too early. 3e offers to "fix this" with wands of magic missile.

That's not a fix. It's a band-aid.

I actually prefer a recharge rate that encourages you to hold off and use only so many abilities per encounter. However, I'm not sure it needs to be ONE. D&D's "sweet spot" has always been the point where characters were able to fire off 3 small powers, and one medium power per encounter. And have one large ability to use for the dramatic encounter. So what if you could only fire off that large ability after you've spent 6 rounds "ramping it up?" That way, you won't be able to use it in an ordinary encounter, because the encounter will be over before you can get it ready.

So my favorite system would involve spellcasters having some "at-will" abilities, some "special occasion" abilities, some "only on dramatic occasion" abilities, and a few "story-limited" abilities. For instance, I don't have a problem with ruling that casting "Teleport" wipes out your spellcasting for 24 hours. If only because that would cut down on the scry/buff/teleport trick.

All that said, I actually understand Saga's somewhat nonsensical "slotting" of Force Abilities. It's not for game world reasons, but for game play reasons. It's boring if the character just uses his favorite ability on every turn. Sure, it should be "possible" but only at the expense of versatility. Why encourage diversity? Because it's more FUN to watch characters use different moves rather than just firing off the same one over and over.

So, worldwise, the prepared ability system is lame and silly. But dramatically (and funwise) speaking, it's a nice touch.

 

[Henry]

So you can do Darth Vader on Cloud City, or Dooku and Yoda on Geonosis, but if you want to Yoda on Dagobah, Yoda against the droid army in The Clone Wars animated series, or Yoda and Sidious on Coruscant, you gotta start spending Force Points.

We just don't know yet HOW it works.

more likely, from the description, it's going to be

POWER: Telekinesis
You can move objects with your mind, based on the results of a Use the Force check. for 5-50 kg, it's a 10, for 50-500kg, it's a 15, etc. up to 50,000kg (starfighter scale). etc.

They can move the object, but only once per encounter without special circumstances; OR, they can rest for 1 minute and be good to go. We don't know if it's the truth, but it's definitely likely, because regardless of that, the preview says that the jedi gets back ALL his powers after a 1 minute rest. Compare with the martial adepts from Book of 9 swords, and compare with the factotum, who gets back all his inspiration points (which is strange that he can backstab in one round, and suddenly he can't anymore?) So we do have examples of existing mechanics, and they seem to point to FULL recharge, ALL the time, rather than "save your big guns for when you need them."

That's the slope I'd rather personally not see D&D get on, but I can understand why they'd have no problem with it, bringing in players who want that kind of consistent, repeatable, round-after-round power. From there, it's a short jump to, "regain all your hit points" - heck, Iron Heroes does it now, and it's not a jump to expand the crusader's mechanics to a clerical "all healing" kind of role.

Anyway, that's why I'd rather not see "per encounter" in D&D in its current thinking and form. it doesn't even have to be "Vancian," just so long as it's not "Feng Shui" or "Mutants and Masterminds."

 

[WhatGravitas]

More to the point, by the time a low-level magic user has to "drop the bomb" and expend his spell (or, in the case of latter day D&D, spells), in all probability the situation has become dire to the point of the rest of the party needing to retire as well. The cleric's used his or her healing spell(s), the fighters are dead on their feet, the theif (excuse me, rogue) isn't much of a fighter to begin with - by the juncture at which the magic-user says "Yeah, gotta lower the boom on these guys. Gotta use my one spell." the whole notion of "Well, now we have to wait around for the magic user." is a bit superfluous: everyone in the party needs a rest. Everyone.

Point is - that's very different from D&D right now. Because: A wizard without spells can use some fires, some tricks, whatever. He'll do what? Around 1d6 damage to 1d8 damage in the best case. At this point his barbarian buddy will already power attack for at least 2d6+6 damage, and the archer buddy will fling his 1d8+3 arrows at the enemies - the mage's contribution (unless he spent his spells to buff him to Mr. Melee) is going to be next to nothing, because monsters have *much* more hit points than in older editions.

I'm playing RHoD - my big enemies have close to 100 hp on 7th level! To deal with that, you need the average of 28d6 damage. My spells can't kill it, so I'm buffing/de-buffing, doing battlefield control with my spells. Fine.

But then? My staff/crossbow/whatever are not even scratching that thing, usually, and my attack bonus makes it next to impossible to even hit that thing.

AND I have to restrict my spells, allowing me to do something, if another encounter follows.

It's not about hammering all the time, it's about doing *something* useful. Heck, if the wizard gets some other way to contribute to the battle, it's okay as well. Give me the ability to give tactical commands to help my team. Give me perma-use spells to zap it a bit, when the longbow of my ranger buddy fires arrows with 1d8 + 2 (strength) + 1 (enchantment) twice or thrice a round for an average of 22.5 damage (compare to a 10d6 fireball ~35 dmg).

Or I resort to magic items, but then I'm being Mr. Hammering All The Time again. Hell, make wands and staves a bit more iconic would help (i.e. re-useable).

Or redesign the magic system to include a "not-being-useless"-option. Look at the Reserve Feats: They're actually encouraging "not dropping the bomb", because I can do something between "going fiery doom of flaming death" and "playing darts".

EDIT: Don't see that as attack. I *like* the basic concept of Vancian a lot (prepared, prepacked spells, that can be used in some way), but I see room for improvement - and the basic Vancian is close to the original D&D system. Do you want THAC0 back?

So I rather want to refurbish and update the Vancian system... not to kill it for some point system or free-form system.

 

[JohnSnow]

more likely, from the description, it's going to be

POWER: Telekinesis
You can move objects with your mind, based on the results of a Use the Force check. for 5-50 kg, it's a 10, for 50-500kg, it's a 15, etc. up to 50,000kg (starfighter scale). etc.

They can move the object, but only once per encounter without special circumstances; OR, they can rest for 1 minute and be good to go. We don't know if it's the truth, but it's definitely likely, because regardless of that, the preview says that the jedi gets back ALL his powers after a 1 minute rest.

Except that we also have this (bold added by me):

Any character who takes the Force Sensitivity feat gains access to several Force talent trees (Alter, Control, Dark Side, and Sense), which add special abilities to her powers or grant her special actions regarding the Force. Some Force talents require the character to expend a Force point to activate them, while other talents alter the way a character uses the Force in a typical situation.

And this as an example of one of those:

Force Haze: You can spend a Force Point as a standard action to create a "haze" that hides you and your allies from the perceptions of others. You can hide a number of creatures in line of sight equal to your class level. Make a Use the Force check and compare the result to the Will Defense of any opponent that moves into line of sight of any creature hidden by your Force haze. If your check result beats the opponent's Will Defense, all hidden creatures are treated as if they had total concealment against that opponent. The Force haze lasts up to 1 minute but is dismissed instantly if anyone hidden by the Force haze makes an attack.
Prerequisite: Clear Mind.

Now, we have no idea how readily available Force Points will be, but even if they replenish DAILY, this ability is usable 5 times a day, not "after you've rested for a minute." Personally, I think "every level" or "once a week" is more likely. I find it highly unlikely characters will replenish force points every encounter.

Compare with the martial adepts from Book of 9 swords, and compare with the factotum, who gets back all his inspiration points (which is strange that he can backstab in one round, and suddenly he can't anymore?) So we do have examples of existing mechanics, and they seem to point to FULL recharge, ALL the time, rather than "save your big guns for when you need them."

That's the slope I'd rather personally not see D&D get on, but I can understand why they'd have no problem with it, bringing in players who want that kind of consistent, repeatable, round-after-round power. From there, it's a short jump to, "regain all your hit points" - heck, Iron Heroes does it now, and it's not a jump to expand the crusader's mechanics to a clerical "all healing" kind of role.

Anyway, that's why I'd rather not see "per encounter" in D&D in its current thinking and form. it doesn't even have to be "Vancian," just so long as it's not "Feng Shui" or "Mutants and Masterminds."

Iron Heroes effectively doubles the number of encounters characters can handle per day without having to bother with a dedicated healer class. That's a GOOD thing. It does it without changing their vulnerability in a single encounter. Yes, if you want to play "wear the PCs down," you have to throw 8 encounters at them, rather than just 4.

You're assuming, as everyone does who's played D&D, that healing can only be limited by limiting the number of "spells per day" that can be cast. Here's a question - if the ONLY per day limited resource was hit points, wouldn't characters still have to be careful?

Why should encounter-based design mean that characters start with a "full tank" of hit points all the time and every time? Saga Edition certainly isn't advocating that. Neither does Iron Heroes. It just takes the cleric's "contribution" to party resources and shoves it "off screen."

From what I've read of your posts Henry, you're one of those people who likes playing clerics and doesn't view the cleric as the walking band-aid. Well, that's an easy fix. Take away the cleric's healing spells. In an IH style Reserve Point system, they're not necessary.

If you do that, is it still a "fair" class?

The uses of Inspiration Points are limited for the same reason that I mentioned about Force Powers. Because if a Factotum backstabs every round, he's acting like a rogue. That's BORING. So to encourage him to use his entire "bag of tricks," you make the powers "one use per encounter." That way, he's acting like a fighter one round, a rogue the next, and a wizard the last. And filling the niche he's bloody well supposed to.