Pathfinder 2E Will the OGL fiasco increase third party support for Pathfinder?

nevin

Hero
The people I know who have played both tell me the exact opposite.

Then again I'm playing online through VTTs. But even without them - the actual math in play seems shockingly simple in large part because it's repetitively consistent.

To add to some of the stats above, we're now also being told that the Humble Bundle which has the rules and more sold over 100,000 copies BEFORE it was extended. Now what I don't know is if they're cheating that stat or not - if by 100,000 sales do they mean the bundle, or the individual items in it totaled up?

That said, even if they did "cheat" the number and count each individual item as a sale (meaning my one purchase was about '20' in that stat rather than '1' - it would still be a very impressive number of sales in so short a period of time.

I'm getting the impression we're seeing a wave right now.

That said, if you're doing VTTs and in any place other than Foundry it might look dead - because any sane online GM moves their game to Foundry as soon as they can afford the thing, and once they do it starts to look like PF2E is a nearly dead game if you're only counting somewhere like Roll20 where PF1E is still played.

Another side effect of all the sales Paizo has had and the Humble Bundle is that it might look quieter in some local shops than the actual activity is even in that community. I guess that begs the question of do PF2E players need to make a push to support their local shops more or am I just imagining this based on responses in this thread alone?
I've played both and dnd 5e is definitely easier. Not because the rules are easier but because in PF2E you are expected to work as a team and maximize every action. Over the course of a game there is a lot more stress on the players to not screw the other players by misusing an action.
5e on the other hand has no expectations of how players will react .

I do think PF2e is easier for new DM's to pick up and start but then it become's harder because the math is so tight. One encounter with too many adds, or a boss a level or two higher than optimal and you can easily wipe the party.
 

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They got a huge boost from the initial reaction to the OGL. I know several people that ordered PF2e books but none of them are playing it.

I think thier numbers will drop back to pre OGL but I'm sure the big boost of selling out their books will help the company.

I don't see many people in my area looking for 2e groups and the gaming stores usually have a few rulebooks and nothing else.
Zero chance their numbers will drop back down to pre OGL. You're essentially saying absolutely none of the people who bought PF2e stuff will stick around, apparently based on several people you know.

The PF2e subreddit has grown, where there's plenty of new players talking about their experiences playing. I know the Barnes and Nobles stores in my area received a restock on Core Rulebooks a couple weeks ago and also had online orders available. They're all gone now and this was after WotC backed down on OGL. To me, that says some groups that switched still had players looking for books which means the interest hasn't completely faded from the initial OGL outrage. It's probably correct to say interest has cooled off since WotC walked back their OGL stance and I'm 100% sure some of the people who bought books will never actually play the game but to say the PF2e audience hasn't grown beyond the pre-OGL numbers is extremely doubtful.

As @SteveC said, Paizo isn't overtaking WotC realistically anytime soon if ever. They also don't need to, they just need to continue to offer an alternative to 5e that appeals to players in ways that WotC doesn't currently.
 
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nevin

Hero
I think they'll get a bump and them most of those players will bleed back to 5e or something else. Pf2E built a nice sized niche in the RPG space but I don't think the game as it is now will grow much.
 


Retreater

Legend
I've played both and dnd 5e is definitely easier. Not because the rules are easier but because in PF2E you are expected to work as a team and maximize every action. Over the course of a game there is a lot more stress on the players to not screw the other players by misusing an action.
5e on the other hand has no expectations of how players will react .

I do think PF2e is easier for new DM's to pick up and start but then it become's harder because the math is so tight. One encounter with too many adds, or a boss a level or two higher than optimal and you can easily wipe the party.
My lifehack for PF2 is to run it on an easier mode: apply weak templates, or run the party a higher level than suggested in adventures, etc.
Do whatever it takes to appeal to your group of players. Don't feel compelled to meet arbitrary standards of people who aren't at your table.
 

I think they'll get a bump and them most of those players will bleed back to 5e or something else. Pf2E built a nice sized niche in the RPG space but I don't think the game as it is now will grow much.
Which isn't saying the same thing as "I think thier numbers will drop back to pre OGL". I can agree with the statement most of the players will end up going back to 5e for one reason or another though, especially people who only bought stuff out of anger instead of wanting to actually look for a different system. But that's not everyone.

Paizo is kind of in a tough spot atm. They planned out 8 months of sales in their 4th print run and then sold through that stock in 2 weeks, so how many books do you print in the 5th print run? I mentioned this in another thread, but one of my FLGS had stocked something like 5 PF2e Core Rulebooks on release in 2019. They sold 3 prior to the OGL outrage, then finally sold the other 2 along with the rest of the PF2e core books they had from that initial shipment (Bestiary and Gamemastery Guides). I asked if they planned to order anything new and they said they weren't sure because they didn't want to get stuck with books they couldn't sell, so for now they're going to pay attention to customers asking for PF2e and monitor 5e sales to see if there's enough of a drop to warrant shifting shelf space. At least 1 other person here had a similar story, so I get FLGS's hesitation to stock Paizo stuff especially when the subscription program is such a good deal so that's tough to compete with. On the plus side for Paizo, the subscription program probably makes it pretty easy to identify their core audience. They also seem to have a good relationship with Foundry so I'd guess it's not terribly hard for them to find out how many people are playing on VTT.

Entirely worth mentioning the FLGS I mentioned doesn't seem to sell a lot of TTRPG books in general. They seem to sell a lot of MtG, Pokemon cards, and Warhammer minis/painting supplies.
 

My lifehack for PF2 is to run it on an easier mode: apply weak templates, or run the party a higher level than suggested in adventures, etc.
Do whatever it takes to appeal to your group of players. Don't feel compelled to meet arbitrary standards of people who aren't at your table.
And really the system is designed in a way that it isn't hard to do that and if you use milestone leveling the reduced exp for fighting weaker monsters won't matter.
 

Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
I've played both and dnd 5e is definitely easier. Not because the rules are easier but because in PF2E you are expected to work as a team and maximize every action. Over the course of a game there is a lot more stress on the players to not screw the other players by misusing an action.
5e on the other hand has no expectations of how players will react .

I do think PF2e is easier for new DM's to pick up and start but then it become's harder because the math is so tight. One encounter with too many adds, or a boss a level or two higher than optimal and you can easily wipe the party.

That's almost confusing for my personal perspective. Different people see the same things differently which is why it's good to have many different RPGs.

Let me show you how I see that same issue:

PF2E rewards team play. It makes it 'easier' for us to maximize working together.

With now 20 years of playing MMOs under my belt - this just seems intuitive. I remember the first time I tried to play like a team in a 3.5 game right after starting out in WoW. It went horribly and no one got why I was trying to help set up team mates moves, nor did the system reward it.

Now most players are coming to the table expecting to be able to boost, block, heal, and so on for each other. And PF2E's 3-action system and combination of aid, demoralize, and even use of shields and other things for cover means the mechanics are just 'there' for you to do it. However unlike 4E it's not forcing you into it in certain ways.

If a player just says "I want to encourage the barbarian" there's a rule for it and you go.

As for the math - I'm just not seeing it. At all. Maybe it's because my group uses Foundry - but it's all just smoothly integrated in. Foundry shows us all the numbers and they're just so consistent. The other players are all coming from 5E and over and over they're noting how much easier and faster they're finding PF2E's math.

Opinions will vary. After all our two opinions on the teamwork issue are looking at the exact same thing and feeling exactly opposite about it.

But I think with 100,000 sales in the last 2 weeks, if even 10% of those people are more like me than you - it's a game changer in the field of tRPGs.
 

Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
EDIT: This show hasn't really gone into the topics I'd hoped. I did get in one question on third party support but I made a mistake in phrasing (asking about using third party in Golarian) and they focused on that rather than 'how's third party doing'. I have gathered that their own products made to support PF2E are doing well - based on them saying their new Dragon Ancestry book has sold in the 10s of thousands).

-----

On the 'Roll for Combat' youtube channel in... um... 4 minutes.. they're going to be live interviewing "the creator" of PF2E.

Not sure who they mean by that.

I wish YouTube had told me about this last night. It's probably too late for anyone here. Not sure I'm allowed to link it. I only mention it because they will probably talk about third party support and whether or not the game is really growing.
 
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Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
Entirely worth mentioning the FLGS I mentioned doesn't seem to sell a lot of TTRPG books in general. They seem to sell a lot of MtG, Pokemon cards, and Warhammer minis/painting supplies.

This is a large part of why I don't bother with a drive out to FLGSs anymore. I'm in my 50s, they cater to people in their early teens with those product lines. If I walked in without bringing a kid of my own; I'd almost expect police ought to be behind me to make sure I'm not looking for something other than a book...
 

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