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[amethal]

Banning Raise Dead and Resurrection

Banning Raise Dead and Resurrection (but not Reincarnation) was, like so many of my house rules, something I blundered into without giving it much thought.

My campaign world has the Force of Life/Death/Rebirth as one of its "deities". The second edition Complete Priests Handbook had suggestions for having clerics serve forces and philosophies, as well as standard deities, and it sounded like a good idea to me.

I decided that one of the consequences of the existence of this Force was that the life- death-rebirth cycle could not be circumvented. Reincarnation was fine. Raising the dead wasn't.

Overall, I am happy with my decision.

I feel that there is a tendancy to treat death as a minor inconvenience at medium to high levels of D&D. Parties generally have a cleric, or are friendly with a NPC church, and so finding someone willing to cast the spell is quite easy. Characters are often extremely wealthy - and if the victim happened to have died on a church-sponsored quest to save the world, then it is not unreasonable to expect the church to stump up the cost anyway.

The DM can rule that the character hasn't been found worthy of raising, but if some characters are deemed worthy and others aren't then it can look like favouritism.

The campaign complications of important NPCs being raised on a regular basis can be quite mind-boggling, and its a complication I can do without.

However, there is an unexpected drawback. The party are now 14th level, and have come a long way on a quest which in some respects they began in their very first adventure.

A few unfortunate character deaths could derail the entire plot, as the replacement characters would have little or no connection to the quest. They may never find out how that particular story ends - and more importantly, neither will I.

I'm worried that it is causing me to become a soft and timid DM.

Last week I turned down a perfectly good, 100% success guaranteed, opportunity to kill a character - and it would have been entirely the player's own fault as even if your rogue does win initiative it is not generally a good idea to charge solo into melee with a group of 4 fighters who have been intended as a challenge for the entire party.

The player doesn't know I backed off - he has no way of knowing the NPCs were able to cause electrical damage every round, but instead chose a much less effective tactic.

However, I may find myself pulling my punches in a much more obvious manner the next time it happens - and my hard won reputation as an evil DM will be lost forever.

[Please add me to the list of people who'd like Tournaments, Fairs and Taverns.]

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

Add some roleplaying with the three R's

I find that the three R's give a DM the chance for some really good roleplaying, if some effort is put into it. Yes, even with the RAW...

The DM just has to consider the different aspects of what is happening.

First, the caster has had to meet the necessary criteria to cast the spell (minimum level, components, time lapse, part of the body, etc.).

Second, the caster retrieves the soul of the deceased and returns it to the material plane in a body (depending on the spell, this could be a different body).

Third, the deceased is no longer deceased and can resume play.

So, this appears to be fairly cut and dry, but looks can be deceiving. With a little effort, this can be a much deeper experience without changing a single rule. The DM has two targets to choose from, the caster and the deceased (if both are PCs, then the DM should look at both).

Starting with the caster, the DM should take the opportunity for the Deity/Demon/Entity to discuss with the caster the ramifications of his action. This discussion can, and probably would, be done through a servant of the Deity/Demon/Entity, in all but the highest profile cases. Topics could range from morale or ethical consequences (some good entities) to messing with the balance of nature (some neutral entities) to stealing property (neutral or evil entities). The entity may make it abundantly clear that the caster is making an enemy and that his future may be very bleak. The entity may just warn the caster that his actions will be taken into consideration at the final judgement. These options are all well within the rules and do not affect the casters chances of success or components necessary for casting. For NPCs, the DM should consider how the NPC would react to said discussion and base his decision to bring back the deceased.

Moving on the the deceased, the DM can have some real fun with this one. Since the rules do not give a chance for failure, as long as the criteria for casting is met, the entity in control of the soul is going to lose that soul. With that in mind, the entity may be desperate (depending on the importance of said soul). Imagine, if you would, what a demon lord may be willing to do in order to retain the soul of a powerful paladin (this could be aimed at the caster as well). Maybe he'll offer to send a hundred souls to the deity that the deceased worships if he would remain dead (remember, the deceased can decline a return to the living). Maybe he'll threaten to target the family of the deceased if he returns to the living. A good entity could discuss the morale implications of returning to the living (is he acting with greed, other good beings aren't allowed a second chance, etc.). Neutral entities could have a whole range of responses, such as destroying the balance or not allowing chaos to work.

So, for those who see it as the PC getting cheap extra lives, roleplay the situation and see if either the caster refuses or the PC decides to remain dead. Even if the PC does come back, perhaps some additional roleplaying avenues will have opened up for you to pursue (and not necessarily vindictive ones either).

In one of my campaigns, the player of a dwarven fighter/cleric decided that his character would decide to remain dead (this was despite the other players and I preferring that he return). He was roleplaying correctly, of course, and his character remained dead.

A little something to chew on...

Choice: Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth

 

[Warbringer]

Death comes to us all eventually, and even hangs around.

The 3 Rs ignore a common god in nearly all campaigns, the God of Death. This is her domain, she reighs surpreme over souls on their journey, even acts in judgement over souls.

Many moons ago, a newly leveled cleric lay her hands upon the body of a fallen comrad and called his soul back, his task not yet completed.

As the magic of her god coursed form her holy symbol into the broken bones of the slaughtered fighter a voice, sullen but commanding filled the air, "I think we need to have a CHAT!"

It seems that the god of death had his own aganda regarding this particular soul...

How often does the god of death excise his right? Does he have an agreement with the other gods, is he tired of souls being whisked away from his scales by self-important clerics? What if he just just said "bugger it".. no death for a week!

The journey to reclaim a fallen soul should be an epic adventure. A deed must be performed, a redemption completed, an act performed, a favor done: OK you get the idea.

In a world of gods, death is not a backwater doamin where the other gods override his right and power. Occaisionally, he'll remind the gods of this, and what better way than through the party....

Elements of Magic

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Death comes to us all eventually, and even hangs around.

The 3 Rs ignore a common god in nearly all campaigns, the God of Death. This is her domain, she reighs surpreme over souls on their journey, even acts in judgement over souls.

hrm, while I see your point, looking at the death domain, it seems to have mostly to do with dealing death or the undead. Not neccassarily deciding if folks stay dead or not. I guess my question is, is the goddess of death neccassarily also the goddess of the dead? Or is her purview the expereince of death itself, an expereince which the character still remembers and must deal with even given resurection magic?

 

[mythusmage]

What about the legalities?

Fellow gets killed, his estate gets distributed, he's brought back from the dead. How do you handle getting all his stuff back?

Any society that has any way of bringing the dead back will have regulations and ordinances for this. A waiting period for example. Depending on the highest level cleric available to perform the raising it could be as long as a year. If the deceased is of a stature (level) as to make raise dead or resurrection optimal then his estate would be held in trust until he was either raised, or the decision was made to not raise him. As an alternative the deceased may have a legal document laid out specifying what was to happen should he expire in an untimely fashion.

Reincarnation would be another matter. In essence one is starting a whole new life when reincarnated. At least when dealing with traditional reincarnation. Expect spell actuated reincarnation to be treated much the same. As a result what ever the returnee had at the time of his death would no longer be his. Unless his friends and (former) family decided to gift him with it. (Though that holy sword would not be all that useful to the new pixie paladin.)

And what about criminal law? Is a man raised from the dead the victim of murder, or of assault with the intent to commit murder? How permanent does the death have to be? Would the type of raising make a difference? Since Ressurection requires but part of a body would the (formerly) demised be treated as a murder victim while someone brought back by a Raise Dead would not.

Or would there be a time limit? Would the deceased have to stay dead for a minimum amount of time before his death could be considered a homicide?

And what about deliberately delaying a raising? Would delaying a raise until it was no longer possible be accounted homicide, even if the deceased died of another cause? For example, a party of inheritors presenting legal challenges to the qualifications of the one chosen to perform the raising. While physically delaying the raise would be a rather clear cut case, legal maneuvering may not.

Then you have the legal standing of those who perform raises, ressurections, and reincarnations. How do they legally qualify? What are the criteria? What legal protections do they have should things go wrong? Should things go right? Must they belong to an official organization that policies its members to insure quality?

Can criminals be raised? The executed? What is the law regarding sects and cults that forbid raising for any member?

Getting back to reincarnation, what is the returnee's legal status? Beyond possessions how is the returnee to be treated. is he accorded his apparent age, or does his new life begin with his new embodiment? If the area has special laws for those of a race other than the ruling does he have to follow those laws? If there are different laws for different races does he have to follow the laws of his old race, or his new race? Can a gnome turned goblin be a druid if goblins are forbidden by law to become druids?

Then you have those worlds where a returnee may come back as an animal. What is the legal status of animals in that world? Is a distinction made between animals and awakened animals? Is the existence of awakened animals even acknowledged by the law? If it is, do awakened animals have restrictions placed upon them not placed on others?

There's a lot more to be said here, but this should suffice for a start. As always I'm hoping for The Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

...cool thoughts on legal issues...

Good stuff there. As a companion to this, the material resources (the expensive stuff) would also be closely monitored by the government. It isn't as easy as buying a 10,000gp diamond, you either have to find your own or steal one from a government facility. Not only are you stealing an expensive item, but you are stealing someone's return to life. Someone that the government has given their permission to have brought back.

This brings up some good adventure ideas (as well as roleplaying opportunities). The party's rogue is on the "hot list" and therefore would never get legal permission to be brought back. So, now you have to find a black market "resurrector" and convince him to bring back your companion. Uh oh, materials required are your responsibility. Now you have to procur an expensive, rare and well protected object. Ok, so you've gotten past the defenses when it dawns on you that you may be denying someone who is more deserving from coming back.

Ooh, the paladins will have a field day with this stuff.

Anyway, I really like some of these non-rule changing ideas that introduce new roleplaying possibilities (not that rule-changing options are bad, just not what's caught my eye with this topic)...

 

[Dark Psion]

Also consider the Buffy/ Hellraiser aspect, what if when you raised that guy you saved him from hell? A certain pinheaded gentleman may be coming to have a chat with you.

What kind of things can go right or wrong when you bring someone back?

Are they more vulnerable to becoming undead due to cheating death, or if they cheat death too many times will death simply stop coming for them, despite their age or injuries?

I agree that there needs to be more limitations on Raise Dead, for example, I ruled it does not work on death by ability drain since that represents a drain on the person's very lifeforce.

There should be a time limit since the person's soul is going farther and farther away in the multiverse.


Another aspect of these spells that is often overlooked is what are they like from the point of view of the person being raised.

Is it like a video game save point where they go back to just before their death?
"Hey guys, are we going to go after the dragon or not? *sniff* You guys have a barbeque while I was asleep?"

Do they remember dying? Do they remember what happened after they died?
"There was a white light down a long tunnel and at the end were a bunch of guys in a basement playing a game while eating the food of the gods, called Doritos and Mt Dew."

Can they be changed by their death, possibly becoming more celestial or infernal as they were changed while on another plane?

Might they forget everything after drinking from the river Styx and come back a blank slate, i.e. 1st level again?

Might they come back stronger like Goku, since they were adventuring even after death?

In bringing someone back, you are opening a door to another plane, does that door stay closed? Can something else follow them back or could it even beat them back and take their body?

 

[JediSoth]

Resurrection, etc.

One thing I've thought about doing is since Raise Dead and Resurrection tend to cheapen a character’s death, make them rarer and replace them with playable undead, like the sort Libris Mortis allows. I especially thought this would be a great idea in extended dungeon crawls, like The World's Largest Dungeon, since PCs wouldn't necessarily have access to required components for those spells, but the place is crawling with just the right stuff to create undead.

This would also work well with Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, or you could get a copy of Ghostwalk. I always thought that would be a really interesting plug-in to Arcana Evolved. Since resurrection is so rare in that world, and indeed, it takes a week-long ceremony, this would be a great way to allow players to continue to play that beloved character one last time to avenge their death, or to quest for a way to have themselves raised. Like the ghost of Hamlet’s father, your character could embrace unlife as a way to see that justice is done for them before embracing the hereafter.

And I think the Tournaments, Fairs, and Taverns PDF looks interesting.

JediSoth

 

[mythusmage]

Cool stuff on material components and moral quandries.

I see the material component requirement as more a game limitation, something imposed lest the players start bringing folks back willy-nilly. At the same time the gods involved would likely want some sort of sacrifice as a token of intent. Said sacrifice ranging from a period of service up to, at the worst, the life of another sapient. Perhaps many. You want your ranger back, then that village of (rare, peaceful, friendly, lawful good, let's hope they spread and replace all the standard) orcs has to die.

The 10,000 gold piece gem requirement bothers me because it ignores a few matters. First is the matter of gem value fluctuation. Even when the gem supply remains steady the price of gems will vary depending on demand. Add in falling supply and life gets complicated. With most anybody doing a resurrection gems of all types are going to appreciate in value, possibly drastcally. Perhaps to the point where even semi-precious stones are going to be going for a hefty price. It also takes a lot of beauty out of the world, whether by destroying it, or by causing it to be locked away.. Second is the matter of sacrificing to bring a friend back. How much is it worth to you? How much are you willing to pay? An afternoon working on a chapel's landscaping? The lives of innocents? Somewhere inbetween? That is, how serious are you about bringing a party member back?

And would you violate your code of ethics? Now there's a big one. Demands need not be straightforward things, even good gods can be manipulative bastards. You agree to kill three pre-teen girls you could well be damning your chances of bringing your buddy back, but if you refuse he gets to return. It becomes important to know your god and how he operates.

(Let's say you agree to the sacrifice, kill the children, and your bud comes back. How is he going to feel about it? What if you say no, find a different cleric to get the resurrection done, and your god engineers the girls' deaths anyway? What are you going to do then?)

Getting back to legal matters, what is the status of returnees brought back illegally? On a related note, their moral status? Are they treated as undead. Could they be turned or destroyed as undead. (Imagine the look on the paladin's face when he learns he's now the legal and ethical equivalent of a vampire. )

As for post mortality experiences and changes, that's worthy of a thread all its own.

FickleGM, thanks for advancing this sub-topic. (Any chance of two people getting a PDF?)

PDF: The Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

...even more good ideas on the cost of bringing back the dead...

I like this line of thinking. My goal with this topic was to try to completely avoid messing with the RAW. So, in taking your idea a bit further, I would say that the entity in question may not be able to require said payment. That is, unless the caster is bringing back a soul that is in the possession of his own deity, in which case the deity can deny the spell.

In other cases, the deity in control of the soul cannot nullify the casters spell (by the RAW). But, it wouldn't be a very fearsome entity if it didn't have other resources. In this case, it tells the caster to destroy the village of peace-loving hippies ( ) or it unleashes its servants on the caster's home town.

I think it is all in the presentation. I do not want to yoink the players options, but I want to open up roleplaying opportunities while enforcing the steep price of bringing the dead back to life. What you want to do is make the player realize that while the entity cannot deny him his spell, it can make life very interesting if he doesn't play "the game".

This is turning out much more interesting that I originally thought that it would be.

Good luck. (I also want Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth)