Winning Combinations

[eamon]

Here's the sequence.

Twin strike lets you make 2 attacks. As per its description, you make 1 with your main-hand, and 1 from your off-hand.

So when you get to make an AoO, you make it with twin strike (courtesy of blade op). This means that both attacks made via twin-strike are also counted as AoOs, which in turn means that you can replace the off-hand attack from twin-strike with another twin strike (but bear in mind that it carries a -5 to-hit penalty, which will not stack).

That doesn't work - no feat allows replacing your off-hand attack as you specify. I think you mean to say the following:

1. You are granted an opportunity attack. Heavy Blade Opportunity means you can use twin strike to take it.
2. Twin strike allows a hit with your off-hand which is resolved normally, but also allows...
3. A primary hand attack. If(!) this attack hits, you've triggered two-weapon flurry by making a successful attack with your primary weapon (it could be argued that using twin strike isn't a successful opportunity attack with your primary hand, but for the sake of argument, let's suppose that you allow two-weapon flurry)
4. Two weapon flurry grants an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon, which you propose replacing by using heavy blade opportunity with twin strike, so you'd go back to step two again.

However, although step 4 is an opportunity attack and heavy blade opportunity applies, you must take the opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon. You cannot twin strike, or if you do, you cannot use your primary weapon to strike, and in any case will never trigger two-weapon flurry again (since this requires your primary weapon to hit).

Two weapon flurry grants an extra opportunity attack, but it's limited: it grants an attack with your off-hand weapon.

There are several other problems with this combo that an uncharitable DM might also disallow, such as the wording of heavy blade opportunity which might conflict with twin strike anyhow, and the fact that the two individual attacks which twin strike grants are not themselves opportunity attacks, so you could argue that by using twin strike you're no longer making an opportunity attack with your primary hand in the first place. I'd say that's being pointlessly literal, however, and would only resort to such hairsplitting should the rule otherwise not make sense.

 

[Nifft]

And, there are some other rules interpretations that prevent the combo from working at all (ask Hyp), so the DM has to explicitly allow it.

Yep. It's more of a hole in the rules than a synergistic combo.

- - -

Anyway, good combo IMHO is Furious Smash + Twin Strike, or really anything else that gives a bonus to attack and damage + anything that gives a lot of attacks.

Cheers, -- N

 

[mlangsdorf]

One weird combo I want to try is Warlord uses Commander's Strike to have the Fighter attack and mark a foe, then use Knight's Move to move a Ranger away from the Foe. If the foe takes his OA, the Ranger uses Disruptive Strike and the Fighter takes his Combat Superiority Immediate Interrupt.

 

[Dooks Dizzo]

That's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I started this thread Dorf.

I just wish there were more ways to force and enemy to make Attacks of Opportunity! My DM uses a bit too much 'player knowledge' for the badguys.

I mean really, would a Goblin know he was being set up to be demolished?

 

[amysrevenge]

That's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I started this thread Dorf.

I just wish there were more ways to force and enemy to make Attacks of Opportunity! My DM uses a bit too much 'player knowledge' for the badguys.

I mean really, would a Goblin know he was being set up to be demolished?

I'm pretty sure that any enemy hit with a power knows all of the effects of the power. Doesn't cover knowing everything but it does give enemies a lot of knowledge. The goblin might not know all of the details of his imminent demolishing, but he will know any of them that are the result of a power.

 

[Tony Vargas]

4e seems to take a very 'above board' aproach. So, yes, if you're marked by someone who can attack you if you shift while marked, you know it, and probably don't shift.

Furious Smash doesn't work well with Twin Strike (since it's 'next attack roll'), but Righteous Brand, Divine Glow, Warlord's Favor, Lead the Attack and Warlord's Strike all work well with it. Commander's Strike lets you double-up on any "until the end of your next turn" attack bonus you grant by giving the affected ally another (basic) attack that benefits from the bonus.

While Knight's Move is mostly used to help an ally move, it actually grants a Move Action, so could be used to shift, use a power that uses a move action (like, Expeditious Retreat or Tumble - there's a combo right there) or, perhaps, technically, while it's against the spirit of the power, trade it in for a minor action.

 

[Nail]

4e seems to take a very 'above board' aproach. So, yes, if you're marked by someone who can attack you if you shift while marked, you know it, and probably don't shift.

Yep.

And remember, it works in reverse too. If the DM hits you with a power (or marks you, or whatever), you get to know what happened, and what will happen to you if you do "X".

You want this. Really. 'Cause the DM's gonna attack you far more often than you will attack the bad guys.

 

[Caliban]

Yep.

And remember, it works in reverse too. If the DM hits you with a power (or marks you, or whatever), you get to know what happened, and what will happen to you if you do "X".

You want this. Really. 'Cause the DM's gonna attack you far more often than you will attack the bad guys.

From what I read, you are merely aware of what conditions you are under.

You know that you were marked by the guy in front of you, but you may not know that he is a fighter and will get another attack if you shift away, or that he's a paladin and you will take damage if you attack someone else. (Intelligent creatures who are aware of paladins and fighters, and the different ways in which they mark opponents would probably figure it out pretty easily, but all an unintelligent creature would know is that they get a penalty if they attack somoneone else when they are marked. )

At least, that is my understanding of how it works.

 

[Runestar]

I think my explanation was erroneous to begin with, partly due to (I admit) my not completely grasping the crux of the combo, but I think I have it now.

Regarding the twin strike+heavy blade op+TW-flurry combo, note the bolded parts.

Twin Strike Ranger Attack 1
If the first attack doesn’t kill it, the second one might.
At-Will ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon.
Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee; main weapon and off-hand weapon) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged), two attacks
Hit: 1[W] damage per attack.
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.

Heavy Blade Opportunity
Prerequisites: Str 15, Dex 15
Benefit: When you make an opportunity attack with a heavy blade, you can use an at-will attack that has the weapon keyword instead of a basic attack.

Two-Weapon Flurry
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: While holding a melee weapon in each hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity attack with your off-hand weapon against the same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).

I don't see the discrepancy. I convert an AoO to twin strike, which lets me make 2 basic attacks. Those 2 would be considered AoOs as well, which in turn lets me replace those 2 basic attacks with twin strikes of my own. Now I have 2 main-hand and 2 off-hand attacks, each of which I can replace with twin strikes.

And this endlessly repeating sequence goes on and on, letting me replace each iteration of AoOs with twice as many AoOs (and this process repeats itself). So with enough time and patience, I can work myself up to 1 trillion AoOs. Even if the -5 to-hit penalty stacks (I am unclear on this), the rules do state that a natural 20 is an automatic hit (just not an automatic crit), so I should on average, still be able to hit with 0.2 trillion of my hits. On an expected damage value basis, that would net me enough damage to one-shot any foe, even Orcus many times over.

2-weapon flurry is there to lift the cap that you may make only 1 AoO each round, and to drive home the point that the attacks you make with AoOs are still considered AoOs themselves, even if you upgrade them to at-wills.

Here is the original article, if you want more information
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1033.0

Discuss.

 

[Caliban]

I think my explanation was erroneous to begin with, partly due to (I admit) my not completely grasping the crux of the combo, but I think I have it now.

Regarding the twin strike+heavy blade op+TW-flurry combo, note the bolded parts.

I don't see the discrepancy. I convert an AoO to twin strike, which lets me make 2 basic attacks. Those 2 would be considered AoOs as well, which in turn lets me replace those 2 basic attacks with twin strikes of my own. Now I have 2 main-hand and 2 off-hand attacks, each of which I can replace with twin strikes.

And this endlessly repeating sequence goes on and on, letting me replace each iteration of AoOs with twice as many AoOs (and this process repeats itself). So with enough time and patience, I can work myself up to 1 trillion AoOs. Even if the -5 to-hit penalty stacks (I am unclear on this), the rules do state that a natural 20 is an automatic hit (just not an automatic crit), so I should on average, still be able to hit with 0.2 trillion of my hits. On an expected damage value basis, that would net me enough damage to one-shot any foe, even Orcus many times over.

2-weapon flurry is there to lift the cap that you may make only 1 AoO each round, and to drive home the point that the attacks you make with AoOs are still considered AoOs themselves, even if you upgrade them to at-wills.

Here is the original article, if you want more information
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1033.0

Discuss.

/puts on DM hat

It doesn't work. End of discussion.