WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Flatus Maximus]

Interesting. Those are not good odds. If the party wants to get through this area of the dungeon without using spells to find the secret doors, they're basically going to have to do the 1E equivalent of taking 20 on search checks.

It's not as bad as it seems. If a party of 6 non-elf PCs are actively searching, then the probability of not finding a secret door is (5/6)^6, or about 1/3. Not absolute certainty, for sure, but the odds are in favor of the party finding the door. Throw in an elf or two and the odds get better.

 

[Kurtomatic]

[MENTION=31216]Bullgrit[/MENTION].I'm also somewhat confused by Gygax's response. As you note, the PC's have to interact with the tapestries in order to move forward, and the tapestries are the most dangerous part of the room.

In regards to Gary's comment, you need to constantly remind yourself of the tournament meta-game. Let's look at the quote again:

The room where the movement will rip the tapestries if being handled, cause them to revert to their actual material, green slime, is exactly as you discerned, a trap for greedy PCs who have lost sight of their mission.

As an experienced tourney DM, I can tell you that the "mission" of virtually every tournament adventure is to finish. Traditional scoring is weighted for progress and survival. 'Looting' this tomb is mostly color text; you might get bonus points for collected GP value, but they will pale against the score you'll get for finishing alive. You're competing with other groups at this event (we're at a con, remember?), and jacking around with a transitive room like this is asking for punishment.

I think this supports your general thesis about the intent of the trap; give them 1 round/turn to make reasonable searches and move on. After that, the gloves come off. That's not exactly what the text says, but its a practical interpretation for a tourney.

 

[Freakohollik]

It's not as bad as it seems. If a party of 6 non-elf PCs are actively searching, then the probability of not finding a secret door is (5/6)^6, or about 1/3. Not absolute certainty, for sure, but the odds are in favor of the party finding the door. Throw in an elf or two and the odds get better.

So a party of 6, actively searching has a 2/3 chance? I don't find this reassuring considering the sheer number of secret doors that must be found. Especially important at area 23 where if the door is not found, the party is dead. But that's a getting ahead of ourselves.

 

[Flatus Maximus]

So a party of 6, actively searching has a 2/3 chance? I don't find this reassuring considering the sheer number of secret doors that must be found. Especially important at area 23 where if the door is not found, the party is dead. But that's a getting ahead of ourselves.

OK, replace one non-elf PC with an elf. The probability of not finding a secret door is: (5/6)*(4/6)*(5/6)^5, approximately 0.22. (The first two factors are the elf getting a roll just for being within 10' and a search.) If the door is concealed (not secret), the probability drops to: (5/6)*(3/6)*(5/6)^5, approximately 0.17.

This is probably a one-turn worst-case scenario, since the party might be larger (more PCs and/or hirelings), have more elves, or spend more time searching.

 

[Hussar]

Now this brings up a couple of interesting points. Even with an elf, we're still looking at failing 1 in 5 to find a secret door. If that happens to be a critical secret door, the party is largely pooched.

Secondly though, can a group re-search the same area? Are retries allowed in 1e? I know for a number of things they aren't - such as thieves skills. I know we played at the time that retries were not allowed for most things. I don't remember if secret doors was one of those.

 

[Bullgrit]

As an experienced tourney DM, I can tell you that the "mission" of virtually every tournament adventure is to finish. Traditional scoring is weighted for progress and survival. 'Looting' this tomb is mostly color text; you might get bonus points for collected GP value, but they will pale against the score you'll get for finishing alive. You're competing with other groups at this event (we're at a con, remember?), and jacking around with a transitive room like this is asking for punishment.

I think this supports your general thesis about the intent of the trap; give them 1 round/turn to make reasonable searches and move on. After that, the gloves come off. That's not exactly what the text says, but its a practical interpretation for a tourney.

Searching, ("looting"), the tomb is not color text, it is *required*. The PCs have to search for secret doors, for traps, for keys, for clues in every area. The PCs can have no intention of taking treasure at all, and they still have to search and examine and explore everything.

They CANNOT just move on forward and ignore everything else. In the previous room, they see the exit way immediately, and they could just march on out. But then they miss the two parts of the first key.

Saying that something in the Tomb is a punishment for wasting time searching things is absurd. The Tomb requires taking the time to search everything. If the PCs don't take time to search everything, and they miss keys and such, and can't move forward, then people would say, "Well you shouldn't just rush through the Tomb."

You're competing with other groups at this event (we're at a con, remember?), and jacking around with a transitive room like this is asking for punishment.

The Players don't know what is a transitive room until they search. Groups in the tournament who get stuck at some point because they missed a key or clue earlier will lose, while those who took the time to search everything may get through and win.

Basically, the argument seems to be that searching is a waste of time except when it isn't; don't waste time searching except in areas where you need to, (but you don't know what areas you need to search until you do search). You'll run out of time and loose the tournament if you waste time searching, but you'll hit a dead end and loose the tournament if you don't take the time to search.

Bullgrit

 

[Kurtomatic]

Saying that something in the Tomb is a punishment for wasting time searching things is absurd...

Rawr! Whoever pissed in your cornflakes this morning, it wasn't me, honest.

I have never run ToH, and I'm not making assertions about this adventure in general. I was simply offering another perspective regarding Gary's reflection on this room. Please try not to inflate my remarks out of context, and I'll try not to step so hard on your OCD triggers.

I agree that there are competing imperatives for the players of this module in a tournament setting. Areas 19 and 21 do make for an interesting comparison, because ideally, there should be some way for the players to suss out which room is important, and which one is a distraction. My comments went to motive, not execution.

You may think it's absurd to punish players for wasting time searching rooms in ToH, but right or wrong, Gary clearly thought otherwise. My own experience in this regard is that distracting, time-wasting, character-killing rooms and traps are a classic tournament meme that work well when they aren't entirely capricious.

This thread is all about design versus implementation. In the case of the Tomb, "murky" seems an apt description.

Mod note: You're free to disagree, but don't get rude or personal about it - see my post below. ~Umbran

 

[FoxWander]

Well I think we can all agree that Tomb of Horrors is not a classic because it was a well-written masterpiece. We've all commented on it's 'stream of consciousness' writing style. It was one of the first ten modules ever published and literally the first tournament module ever published, so I think Gary can be forgiven if it's a little... uneven, shall we say. But in the module's defense, there IS one clue that might allow players to figure that room 21 is a distraction whereas room 19 is important- given it's framework as a tournament module. Room 21 looks very much like the trap that it is and 19 is a room that begs to be searched. It's a little simplistic but I think that's it.

I mean, room 19 is a magical workshop filled with shiny stuff (true, most if it is literally a distraction but I think the sheer amount of stuff is intended to lead players to figure that out as well). Meanwhile, room 21 is a wreck- broken and disheveled and filled with junk. I think the intention is that players should immediately know something "bad" will/has happen/ed in room 21 and that they shouldn't tarry. And I have yet to hear of a party that didn't come to that conclusion. Whether that keeps them from "being punished" by the room is a different matter.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Looking at the pictures of rooms 19 and 21 gives you a completely different perspective on them than the ones you get from descriptions the DM descriptions. It had slipped my mind that this adventure has no descriptive flavor text. When running this adventure the DM is just supposed to show the appropriate picture and then answer any questions the players ask.

In room 19's picture the 3 vats are front and center and obviously hold something in them.

Room 21's shows the warn furniture, several trunks/chests, scattered cups and boxes, a bunch of knocked over braziers, the two tapestries and a (false) door. The oddness of what looks to be a recently passed through room should throw up warning signs in players heads especially if they compare it to 19's untouched state. The coffers are fairly innocuous, and most likely won't be noticed when compared to the tapestries, (false) door or trunks. The setup of the tapestries and false door screams check behind the tapestry on the opposite wall once the false door is identified.

 

[Bullgrit]

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