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WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]
- Thread starter Stoat
- Start date
[MENTION=31216]Bullgrit[/MENTION]. I'm also somewhat confused by Gygax's response. As you note, the PC's have to interact with the tapestries in order to move forward, and the tapestries are the most dangerous part of the room.
On the other hand, the various coffers in the room are likely to contain poisonous snakes. I can see an argument that those are a trap for greedy PC's. Of course, some of the coffers also contain treasure, and I don't have enough feel for 1E to gauge whether the risk of fighting snakes is worth the reward of some platinum and low-value gems.
And, if the intent was to give the PC's a full turn to explore the room before the floor explodes, I can see Gygax's point. 10 minutes is plenty of time for the PC's to learn that the obvious way out is false and to check behind the tapestries for secret doors. Goofing around with the empty boxes and crates increases the chances that the floor goes off and makes finding the secret door much riskier.
On the other hand, the various coffers in the room are likely to contain poisonous snakes. I can see an argument that those are a trap for greedy PC's. Of course, some of the coffers also contain treasure, and I don't have enough feel for 1E to gauge whether the risk of fighting snakes is worth the reward of some platinum and low-value gems.
And, if the intent was to give the PC's a full turn to explore the room before the floor explodes, I can see Gygax's point. 10 minutes is plenty of time for the PC's to learn that the obvious way out is false and to check behind the tapestries for secret doors. Goofing around with the empty boxes and crates increases the chances that the floor goes off and makes finding the secret door much riskier.
Zombie Toast
First Post
I could see several methods working from the portal-style "you've got to get out alive" to a greed-based "ultimate reality show of death!". I may just leave the motivation to the GM. I may even steal an idea from Paranoia and have clone replacements of the PCs pop in when they die (up to a certain limit) to allow a small group to handle the tomb without having to control multiple characters at once.
jonesy
A Wicked Kendragon
It took me a while to figure out what it was that was bugging me about Gary's response, but I think I finally got it.
The Tomb is like an Indiana Jones/Tombraider location. The characters enter willingly looking for something.
The shaky room is like a section from the movie Cube. The moment the shaking starts the only thing the PC's will want is out.
It's a mismatch.
Edit:
Even more than that, it seems to me that the Tomb encourages careful exploration and investigation.
The shaky room discourages it in every way it possibly can. Slime, mold, snakes, the whole room trying to shake you to death.
All you'd need to add is spikes on the ceiling that fall, and traps in the floor into acid pits, and the party would think they were in Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom.
The Tomb is like an Indiana Jones/Tombraider location. The characters enter willingly looking for something.
The shaky room is like a section from the movie Cube. The moment the shaking starts the only thing the PC's will want is out.
It's a mismatch.
Edit:
Even more than that, it seems to me that the Tomb encourages careful exploration and investigation.
The shaky room discourages it in every way it possibly can. Slime, mold, snakes, the whole room trying to shake you to death.
All you'd need to add is spikes on the ceiling that fall, and traps in the floor into acid pits, and the party would think they were in Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom.
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FoxWander
Adventurer
I think this must be it- Gary's response above only makes sense if it works this way. As you said, 10 minutes is plenty of time to search, find the real way out, and move on. If they stick around to loot then things can quickly go bad. They'll have snakes to deal with and the shaking floor meaning their very likely to wind up with one of the tapestry traps going off. In fact, since fire is the most common way to deal with green slime, there's a good chance they'll trigger both- and soon have a room full of mold or slime!
Also- good call about the tapestries being green before. That's at least another (albeit still as vague as "trembling hands") warning about the room.
Bullgrit
Adventurer
Don't forget the PCs have to find all the keys, too. The previous room had two parts of a key hidden in the bottoms of a vat of acid and a vat of ooze. So the PCs *have* to search everything and everywhere. Just finding the next door and moving on will only lead to a dead end, (maybe literally), from which they will have to backtrack and search what they missed in previous areas. How can the PCs know they don't need to search all the trunks and coffers in the agitated chamber for another key?
It makes no sense to punish PCs for "looting" when the whole stated purpose to go into, and the only way through the Tomb, is to "loot" everything for the various keys.
Remember the gems from the gargoyle that are the keys to the gem of seeing?
Remember the ring in the chest that is the key to moving beyond the chapel?
This isn't a case of "stay on target" </Gold Five> else you'll fall for a trap. *Everything* here is trapped, even the keys and the way forward. Even red herrings. Even things that aren't keys or red herrings. You *have* to set off and/or go through some traps just to move forward.
The idea that traps are punishments for looters or bad players is incongruent with the actual Tomb text. In the Tomb of Horrors, traps aren't punishments or hints; they're dungeon dressing.
Bullgrit
It makes no sense to punish PCs for "looting" when the whole stated purpose to go into, and the only way through the Tomb, is to "loot" everything for the various keys.
Remember the gems from the gargoyle that are the keys to the gem of seeing?
Remember the ring in the chest that is the key to moving beyond the chapel?
This isn't a case of "stay on target" </Gold Five> else you'll fall for a trap. *Everything* here is trapped, even the keys and the way forward. Even red herrings. Even things that aren't keys or red herrings. You *have* to set off and/or go through some traps just to move forward.
The idea that traps are punishments for looters or bad players is incongruent with the actual Tomb text. In the Tomb of Horrors, traps aren't punishments or hints; they're dungeon dressing.
Bullgrit
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Bullgrit
Adventurer
Going back and reading a couple pages back in this thread, I remembered I wanted to point this out:
In area 1, someone earlier in this thread said, "The cobwebs should be burned away as good dungeon hygeine, and this will allow inspection of the ceiling to get the second clue."
Such comments seem logical and good common sense in a situation where that is the correct answer to the trick/trap. But when that same logic and good common sense is applied to other tricks/traps in the Tomb, Bad Things happen.
In area 18, regular fire won't work, so using magical fire is required to burn away the webs, to move forward.
In area 21, regular fire causes Bad to happen, and using magical fire causes Very Bad to happen, and could spell doom for a PC or a party.
I think this kind of thing is part of why some folks say the Tomb is not fair, and that it is arbitrary. What is the solution for the trap in one instance is the trigger for the trap in another. And there doesn't seem to be a pattern to it that Players could figure out.
Spiked-pit traps are to be avoided, except for the one that contains the door to continue in the Tomb.
Rocks collapsing a tunnel in one area are real and the PCs should go away and find another way. Rocks collapsing in a tunnel in another area are not real, (though they are described to the Players as real), and the PCs should go back in that same area and find the way.
Containers in one area should be searched because they contain keys to move forward in the Tomb. Containers in another area should be ignored because they are just time wasting traps meant to punish "looters."
Bullgrit
In area 1, someone earlier in this thread said, "The cobwebs should be burned away as good dungeon hygeine, and this will allow inspection of the ceiling to get the second clue."
Such comments seem logical and good common sense in a situation where that is the correct answer to the trick/trap. But when that same logic and good common sense is applied to other tricks/traps in the Tomb, Bad Things happen.
In area 18, regular fire won't work, so using magical fire is required to burn away the webs, to move forward.
In area 21, regular fire causes Bad to happen, and using magical fire causes Very Bad to happen, and could spell doom for a PC or a party.
I think this kind of thing is part of why some folks say the Tomb is not fair, and that it is arbitrary. What is the solution for the trap in one instance is the trigger for the trap in another. And there doesn't seem to be a pattern to it that Players could figure out.
Spiked-pit traps are to be avoided, except for the one that contains the door to continue in the Tomb.
Rocks collapsing a tunnel in one area are real and the PCs should go away and find another way. Rocks collapsing in a tunnel in another area are not real, (though they are described to the Players as real), and the PCs should go back in that same area and find the way.
Containers in one area should be searched because they contain keys to move forward in the Tomb. Containers in another area should be ignored because they are just time wasting traps meant to punish "looters."
Bullgrit
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