WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Rogue Agent]

Yes, because back in the day, games had no plots or stories, just a series of random events loosely bound together by character...

Looking at your posting history, it doesn't really surprise me that the only two options you can imagine are "GM preps a plot" and "random events".

Fortunately, however, RPGs are not curtailed to such narrow horizons.

 

[Stoat]

Heyguys, if you want to talk about plotted vs. unplotted adventures, would you kindly fork off a new thread? I'm here to talk about the Tomb of Horrors.

Area 25D. Ebony Dais and Silver Throne

An area 30 feet square in the center of the south wall of the Pillared Throne Room is dominated by a huge black dais. Although the subheading for this section says the throne is silver, the text says the throne is obsidian inlaid with silver and ivory skulls. Either way, it's very Brutal Legend.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic25d.jpg

There's a gold crown and an electrum scepter sitting on the throne. Both radiate magic. One end of the scepter is gold, the other is silver. There's also a little silver crown inlaid on the throne. You can see it in the picture.

When worn, the crown "negates the pillars' levitation effects" and allows the wearer to see within Area 25 as if it were broad daylight. However, "outside this place" the wearer is blind. The person wearing the crown knows that it can only be removed by touching it with the scepter.

Accordingly, touching the gold crown with the gold end of the scepter will allow the wearer to remove the crown. Touching the gold crown with the silver end of the scepter turns the wearer into nasty, fetid dust (no save).

Touching the silver crown inlaid on the throne with the silver end of the scepter opens a path forward. The throne sinks into the floor, and there's a tunnel behind it. There does not seem to be any ill effect if the silver crown is touched with the gold end of the scepter.

The crown and scepter are worth a total of 40,000 gp, but demons will chase after anybody who takes them out of the Tomb.

IMO: "Into the columned hall you'll come, and there the throne that's key and keyed." The players found a key back in Area 19, but that's not what the riddle is talking about. The key to the throne is actually the scepter.

On one hand, the bit with the scepter and the crowns is pretty straightforward. The silver end of the scepter goes with the silver crown. The gold end of the scepter goes with the gold crown. On the other hand, I don't see any clue, hint, riddle or other indication that a group of clever PC's could use to work this out. It seems like random guessing or divination magic is the order of the day. Have I missed something?

 

[amerigoV]

On one hand, the bit with the scepter and the crowns is pretty straightforward. The silver end of the scepter goes with the silver crown. The gold end of the scepter goes with the gold crown. On the other hand, I don't see any clue, hint, riddle or other indication that a group of clever PC's could use to work this out. It seems like random guessing or divination magic is the order of the day. Have I missed something?

I remember getting to this point in the 3.5 version of the Tomb. For some reason, I thought we messed up, but I do not recall anyone getting "pfft'd" - so maybe the DM was nice. We then figured it out how to get the crown off and move on.

Other than the Gold to Gold, Silver to Silver logic with some potential help form divination magic, I do not think there are any other clues.


Happy Halloween - go kill some PCs today!

 

[Bullgrit]

Area 25D. Ebony Dais and Silver Throne

Touching the gold crown with the silver end of the scepter turns the wearer into nasty, fetid dust (no save).

And "wishes not withstanding." It's interesting how for some things, Gygax wanted a death quite definite and permanent.

At this stage of the Tomb, why would anyone put a crown on their head? I would fully expect merely placing it on your top to snuff you out. Fortunately for anyone so incautious, they get a second chance to make a better choice.

The crown and scepter are worth a total of 40,000 gp, but demons will chase after anybody who takes them out of the Tomb.

Curious: my copy of ToH says 25,000 for the crown and 12,500 for the scepter. Were you just rounding off the value, or does your text say 40k exactly?

And a Type I demon, (or two), going after level 10-14 adventurers? Pshaw. Easy money.

Other than the Gold to Gold, Silver to Silver logic with some potential help form divination magic, I do not think there are any other clues.

The gold-to-gold and silver-to-silver touching does seem logical, (when we know that is the correct pattern), but with no clues or hints, the PCs really don't know if this crown and scepter deal is a logical gimmick. I mean, there are so many illogical gimmicks, (the tapestry is really green slime, etc.), throughout this Tomb that I don't see how thinking about this logically is the logical thing to do.

<shrug> But this is not a bad gimmick for the Tomb. I'd say it's decent enough.

Bullgrit

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

On one hand, the bit with the scepter and the crowns is pretty straightforward. The silver end of the scepter goes with the silver crown. The gold end of the scepter goes with the gold crown. On the other hand, I don't see any clue, hint, riddle or other indication that a group of clever PC's could use to work this out. It seems like random guessing or divination magic is the order of the day. Have I missed something?

Nope, but for a TOH death-trap, it is pretty logical and straight forward. It is tough but fair.

When my group ran the dungeon:

Player: "I reach out with my stick and lift the crown off the throne."
DM: "The crown lifts from the seat, resting heavily on the end of your stick. So, does anyone wear the crown?"
Players: /unimpressed stare
DM: "Right."

/A few minutes of playing with the crown and scepter does not end with horrible death. Still... no one puts the crown on.
Player: "You say there's a symbol of the crown on the throne?"
DM: "A symbol of 'A' crown anyway. It's done in silver."
Player: "Still holding the crown on the end of my pole, I'm going to touch the crown to the symbol of the crown on the throne. Then I'm backing away. Quickly."
DM: "Where are the rest of you while he's doing this?"
Other Players: "Far away."

DM: "Hot, sudden death does not come to claim you... at this point. Touching the crown to the throne appears to not do anything."
Player: "Hmm... anyone want to sit on the throne?"
Other players: "No way in Hell."
Player: "Thought so. Describe the scepter again."
DM: /description
Player: "Hey... silver end? And the symbol on the throne is worked in...?"
DM: "Silver."
Players: "..."
Player A: "No way."
Player B: "Couldn't be that easy."
Player C: "Has to be a trap."
Player D: "I put the scepter down on a cloak, the silvered end sticking out beyond the edge of the cloak. Then I put the 10' pole beside the scepter. I wrap the cloak around the scepter and the pole, and tie it tight with a piece of rope. This way the scepter is tightly held with the silvered end out, but 10 feet away from us."
DM: "Okay."
Player: "Then we all back away. We all hide, and the fighter puts his shield up facing the throne, and I hunch behind it. Carefully reaching out with the pole, I touch the silver end to the symbol of the crown."

DM: "With a subtle groan, the throne... [pause as we all tense]... sinks into the floor, revealing a hidden passageway behind it."

Players: ".... it worked?"
DM: "Appears that way."
Players: "Son of a bitch. Silver to silver, that actually made sense."
DM: "Perhaps. So, who's going to wear the crown?"
Players: "NO ONE!"
DM: /sigh

 

[Bullgrit]

=Loincloth of Armour]When my group ran the dungeon:

...

Awesome!

* * *

I read, (somewhere that I can't find right now with a quick search), that in a tournament game, the PCs used this crown and scepter gimmick to defeat the demi-lich.

Bullgrit

 

[jonesy]

As written the crown/scepter actually makes one of the best weapons in the game. Get it on someones head, and they are pretty much permanently blind. Touch it with the wrong end, and they're dead. In the hands of someone skilled in reverse pickpocketing you could really wreck a campaign world. And I agree with Bullgrit about the threat of the demons. All they are is a pool of extra experience.

Besides, since "The person wearing the crown knows that it can only be removed by touching it with the scepter", they might even freely let you have the chance of using the wrong end on them.

 

[Bullgrit]

I read, (somewhere that I can't find right now with a quick search), that in a tournament game, the PCs used this crown and scepter gimmick to defeat the demi-lich.

Found the reference, from EGG himself:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/76849-gary-gygax-q-part-vi-2.html#post1398287

Don't confuse the RttToH, which I did not write, with the original ToH. In the latter there are no mechanical bucking broncos or green slime tapestries. Of course the incautious will find plenty of certain death opportunities in the original adventure...

Only the most veteran of my group attempted to explore the ToH with their regular PCs. Son Ernie and Terry Kuntz retreated when they discovered how difficult and deadly a dungeon their PC faced. Rob Kuntz with PC Robilar made it to the end, losing some dozen or so orc troops along the initial route, and when faced with the rising skull of the demi-lich did the logical thing for his character--scoooped up the treasure and retreated in utmost haste. Note all of those forays were by single PCs, Robilar accompanied by flunkies.

A number of large parties of PCs made the journey into the tomb, some with many survivors, and two I know of defeated the demi-lich. The most innovative solution was by a tournament group that used the reverse end of the scepter to touch the crown gained with it in the throne room. When the skull arose one of the PCs popped the crown on it, another used the scepter, and the demi-lich was powder. Russ Stambaugh was their DM, and when he told me what they had managed to pull off, I awarded them first place hands down.

The adventure is meant to be deadly, kill off all the unwary PCs, and make the survivors paranoid. It is best played with characters created for the adventure, not the regulars in a campaign, as the ToH is unforgiving and often results in TPK.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/125997-gary-gygax-q-part-ix-35.html#post2533612

What I say about nay-sayers is, pluck 'em! They can express their opinion, and so what? I don't need to defend anything. Some hundreds of thousands of PCs have adventured in the ToH, and not many have made it successfully, so it is most demanding of real skill.

You can quote me from this post, if you like, for we ran the module as a tournament at a Spring or Autumn Revel, or a Winter Fantasy con here back in the day. There were, IIRR, eight teams, and one of them absolutely obliterated the demi-lich by using the crown, putting it on his head, and touching the "wrong end" of the scepter to it. Russ Stambaugh was the DM for that team, and he asked me if that would work. I was astounded at how clever the players had been, said so, and gave them the top spot for their innovation. Again, as I recall, several of the other eight teams made the cut, destroyed Acecerak. those were veteran dungeoneers, of curse.

Ernie playing Tenser didn't go for the situation and cleared out. Rob playing Robilar made it to the end, grabbed all the loot, and didn't bother fighting the demi-lich--not much profit in that by his estimation, not with all the treasure in his bag of holding. I have run a party of local gamers through the ToH, and they made it with the loss of a couple of the PCs. It was many years ago, so I do not recall player names and details--way too many gaming sessions under my belt in the 33 years I have been a GM for such recollections...

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

And I agree with Bullgrit about the threat of the demons. All they are is a pool of extra experience.

Worth about 1,635 xp each, (3,270 for two). Or about 1.3%, (counting two demons), what a 10th-level fighter needs to reach 11th level. Compare that to the [near] 40,000gp treasure value of the crown and scepter -- about 12 times the xp of the demons.

Yeah, it's worth taking the loot.

*Edit: Although, the ToH text says the DM should award only half the xp for gold recovered from the Tomb -- 1xp per 2gp. But the Players wouldn't know of this alteration from the standard.

Bullgrit

 

[Stoat]

[MENTION=31216]Bullgrit[/MENTION]: I misread my copy of the module. You are correct that the crown is worth 25,000 and the scepter 12,500. For whatever reason, I thought the scepter was worth 15K.