Wire Fu Demonic Magical Superheroes

[Reynard]

This is flawed thinking.

Basing the purchasing habits of people based on message boards?

Let's face it. People on the message boards are not typical D&D players. And by that, I mean, they're not a sampling of average D&D players, from a statistical point of view.

We 1) Have the internet, 2) care enough about it to be coming to these websites, and 3) Well to make my point, we're debating this at 1:AM EST. Would you say your average D&D user is that obsessed?

The online messageboard community is a small drop in the bucket of all the people who played 3rd edition.

Here's the thing, though. That is what WotC is using as their "market research". There were no Dragon surveys, as with every other edition change. They have relied on book sales and internet surveys (I think the last one I partook in was a good year ago?) to determien the course of 4E. The first is a decent strategy; the second is horribly flawed. it skews your sample. Hence the DDI.

A better decision would have been to run a survey with paid postage in the back of the second run of Complete books, I think. At least then you'd be getting the opinions of those that buy books the people you care about). instead, you get the opinions of people that hang out online a lot -- who probably download your books "for free".

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Then I don't understand why you want D&D at all. There's lots of games out there that give you what you want.

Not that I am blaming you, specifically, for this. I just mean: D&D has maintained, through many variations and editions, a certain core set of assumptions and aspects that make it D&D. Why want an edition that gets rid of those, when there's a million and one alternative RPGs out there? Why "ruin" D&D so that it won't be D&D anymore?

Conversely, if you want to live in squalor and have your characters eventually die when they're jumped by an angry goblin, why do you want D&D at all? Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is better at lives of quiet fantasy desperation. Always has been.

 

[Counterspin]

Hey Reynard, I've got a question. Since you've already got your ideal version of D&D, why do you want to deny something new and interesting to the rest of us?

 

[Reaper Steve]

This is flawed thinking.

[Friendly debate]
Reynard stated as fact that for every person that loves 4E there is a person that hates it, making it a zero-sum exchange. I challenged that statement as he had no way of validating that. It is purely an individual's observation of the situation and should be represented as such.

I stated that my observation of the message board community (which is a small and biased sample) does not match his, but I acknowledged it as my observation.
[/Friendly debate]


The bottom line is: 4E is going to be what it will be. It is changing and you cannot change that. One's refusal to accept the reasons behind the changes won't prevent it from changing.

Edit: I just realized that Rechan was responding to my response to Reynard...I thought it was Reynard both times. I adjusted my pronouns to make it clear that I am addressing my challenging of Reynard's statement.

 

[WayneLigon]

This of course has its own problems, but it has been discussed to death elsewhere. So rather than go into it, I would suggest everyone who can track down a copy of Best of dragon Vol II and read EGG's "From The Sorcerer's Scroll" on why D&D had Vancian Magic in the first place. it was hardly the only magic system he was familiar with from myth and literature. He chose it for a reason.

I have it. Didn't make sense then, doesn't make sense now.

 

[WayneLigon]

Here's the thing, though. That is what WotC is using as their "market research". There were no Dragon surveys, as with every other edition change.

Dragon surveys come out the same as internet surveys: they reach only a tiny fraction of the D&D-buying and -playing audience.

 

[Rechan]

I stated that my observation of the message board community (which is a small and biased sample) does not match his, but I acknowledged it as my observation.

Fair enough.

The bottom line is: 4E is going to be what it will be. It is changing and you cannot change that. One's refusal to accept the reasons behind the changes won't prevent it from changing.

Unless of course you're Eberron fans who don't want the time line advancement.

But yes, 4e is coming. Two plus years, they've now shifted their entire focus to it. There's no stopping the avalanche.

 

[Cadfan]

Crappy game design that has been on top of the heap for 30 years.

I think I adequately addressed that. There's a lot that's good about D&D. There's some bad. You seem devoted to preserving the bad.

For every person that is all excited about changing everything about the game, there's a person who doesn't want the change. That isn't a good thing. It puts WotC in the uneviable position of having to replace half their consumer base with... who, exactly?

If you honestly think that WOTC is going to lose half their customers over this, your view of the issue is so myopic its frightening. The dissatisfaction rate is vastly lower than 50%. Even on these forums its lower than 50%. Of those who are dissatisfied, a lot of people will play 4e anyways because their gaming group will play 4e. Those that hold out will mostly be DMs who can choose their own edition, and even they will have significant pressure to change once their players change over time, and new players are familiar with 4e but not 3e.

 

[Reaper Steve]

Unless of course you're Eberron fans who don't want the time line advancement.

You know, that gets me... but for the opposite reasons.
FR: It has 20 years of bloat and the attempts to 'story' the edition changes were IMO, poor. I think it would be much better to press the reset button.
Eberron: still not old enough for it's first shave. Press the reset button...especially if you're not going to advance the timeline.

If either of those settings were around 8-12 years of age, then I'd agree that resetting would be untimely. But FR is old...old enough that I probably won't be interested in a timeline-advanced 4e version. But a $E reimagined version? That'd get my $.

Eberron...so new I'd be better to reset than say 'oh yeah, this is how it's always been' without even a courtesy timeline advancement. The Blog post (by Wyatt, I think) that already states they will be doing something along the lines of 'Well, yeah, Eberron did have Tielfling warlocks, you just didn't see them'...I found that insulting.

Of the two, I'll stick with the default Points of Light (PoL).

 

[Zurai]

Eberron...so new I'd be better to reset than say 'oh yeah, this is how it's always been' without even a courtesy timeline advancement. The Blog post (by Wyatt, I think) that already states they will be doing something along the lines of 'Well, yeah, Eberron did have Tielfling warlocks, you just didn't see them'...I found that insulting.

Why? Eberron DID already have Tiefling Warlocks.