D&D 5E (2014) wis Warlocks and con Sorcerers

[humble minion]

Pretty sure I've made something VERY similar to this thread before! Although i was more raising the possibility of making it a player choice rather than a flat-out change in casting stat.

D&D 5E - Alternate caster stats

I've never really liked how D&D puts fences around the character concepts for spellcasters, by making so much of their effectiveness dependent on a single pre-defined spellcasting ability score. Warlocks are the obvious example. Surely a quintessential warlock concept is the resentful...

www.enworld.org

I'd go with allowing Wis sorcerers and Int warlocks personally though. And Cha clerics. I don't really believe in Con as a casting stat.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is more a theoretical "what-if" than an actual desire to change either of these classes. But with having both the Warlock and Sorcerer (and Bard...) currently using Charisma as their prime casting requirement, what sort of effect on play would there be if we switched one (or both) off using Charisma as their casting ability?

In the case of Warlocks, what if Wisdom was their primary casting ability?

You'd see alot more clerics/druids with a 2 level warlock dip.

As for Sorcerers, what if Constitution became their primary casting ability? As vessels and conduits of innate magic, the strength of their body (their vessel) directly relates to their ability to draw on and harness magical power and wield it without burning themselves out. As above, what effects would this have on mechanics and story for the Sorcerer?

Level 8 Dragon Sorcerer would have 82 hp. That's more hp than a typical fighter at that level.
Level 8 Wizard would have around 50 or 58.

Looks fairly unbalanced.

In the Sorcerer's case, I think one minor side effect might be that multiclassing Barbarian/Sorcerer might be more appealing and to some degree fitting story elements of the mixing of the two.

I don't. You can't cast or concentrate while raging.

 

[Mind of tempest]

This is more a theoretical "what-if" than an actual desire to change either of these classes. But with having both the Warlock and Sorcerer (and Bard...) currently using Charisma as their prime casting requirement, what sort of effect on play would there be if we switched one (or both) off using Charisma as their casting ability?

In the case of Warlocks, what if Wisdom was their primary casting ability? Where Clerics are driven by their unshakable faith (Will) in a god, the Warlock instead is the master of "common sense" in understanding the contract between them and a supernatural entity - not the letter of the law (which would be Int), but the intent and ways to manipulate it to their benefit. The warlock knows the ins and outs of how to manipulate that "binding oath" between the two to drawn on magical power for their own use. There might be some secondary knock-on effects of "faith in the contract" or the patron, but likely not to the level of a cleric. What knock-on game effects would this have on mechanics and play? What sort of story side elements could be brought in on this?

As for Sorcerers, what if Constitution became their primary casting ability? As vessels and conduits of innate magic, the strength of their body (their vessel) directly relates to their ability to draw on and harness magical power and wield it without burning themselves out. As above, what effects would this have on mechanics and story for the Sorcerer?

In the Sorcerer's case, I think one minor side effect might be that multiclassing Barbarian/Sorcerer might be more appealing and to some degree fitting story elements of the mixing of the two.

thematically wisdom would not work as no one with common sense makes deals with things that mostly should never be interacted with at all, let alone making it your boss.

con sorcerers make too much sense

 

[Yaarel]

I have the following connotations:

Intelligence = knowledge and intuition
Charisma = personal relationships and self expression
Wisdom 1 = will power and sanity
Wisdom 2 = animal senses


Cleric: Charisma (spiritual leader), Wisdom 1 (perseverance).
Druid: Wisdom 2 (nature attunement), Intelligence (sage).
Wizard: Intelligence, Charisma.

Bard: Charisma (shaman, artist), Intelligence (sage).
Sorcerer: Charisma (self expression), Constitution (magical body).
Psion: Charisma, Wisdom 1, Wisdom 2 (psychometabolism)
Warlock: Intelligence (forbidden knowledge), Charisma (personal relationship).

Artificer: Intelligence, Dexterity (manual precision).
Barbarian: Constitution, Charisma.
Fighter 1: Strength, Constitution.
Fighter 2: Dexterity, Constitution.
Monk: Dexterity, Wisdom 1.
Paladin: Charisma, Strength.
Ranger 1: Strength, Intelligence (MacGyver, magical poultice/potion).
Ranger 2: Strength, Dexterity (stealth, covert ops).

 

[Corinnguard]

This is more a theoretical "what-if" than an actual desire to change either of these classes. But with having both the Warlock and Sorcerer (and Bard...) currently using Charisma as their prime casting requirement, what sort of effect on play would there be if we switched one (or both) off using Charisma as their casting ability?

In the case of Warlocks, what if Wisdom was their primary casting ability? Where Clerics are driven by their unshakable faith (Will) in a god, the Warlock instead is the master of "common sense" in understanding the contract between them and a supernatural entity - not the letter of the law (which would be Int), but the intent and ways to manipulate it to their benefit. The warlock knows the ins and outs of how to manipulate that "binding oath" between the two to drawn on magical power for their own use. There might be some secondary knock-on effects of "faith in the contract" or the patron, but likely not to the level of a cleric. What knock-on game effects would this have on mechanics and play? What sort of story side elements could be brought in on this?

As for Sorcerers, what if Constitution became their primary casting ability? As vessels and conduits of innate magic, the strength of their body (their vessel) directly relates to their ability to draw on and harness magical power and wield it without burning themselves out. As above, what effects would this have on mechanics and story for the Sorcerer?

In the Sorcerer's case, I think one minor side effect might be that multiclassing Barbarian/Sorcerer might be more appealing and to some degree fitting story elements of the mixing of the two.

I have seen something similar to your idea of switching around a class's spellcasting ability score. The Elementalist class from the Manual of Adventurous Resources: Complete by Purple Martin Games allows you to do this. Here's what it says about this class's spellcasting ability score:

Your elemental power is wild and untamed, and it expresses itself differently in each elementalist. As such, the method that you understand and shape this power is individual to you. It may come through study and rigorous practice, insight, and awareness of yourself, or pure will power.

You are then asked to choose Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma to be your spellcasting ability. There is even a sidebar that talks about associating your spellcasting ability with the element (air, earth, fire and water) you picked at 1st level.

Air and Water have associations with serenity, swiftness, and adaptability, lending themselves to Intelligence and Wisdom, while Air could be associated with musical instruments and thus be paired with Charisma. Earth is sturdy, and can be linked with Wisdom, but it can also be seen as nurturing or strong willed and be paired with Charisma. Fire has associations with brilliance, creativity, and passion, associating it with Intelligence or Charisma.

It might be better to leave it up to the individual spellcaster then, when it comes to deciding which spellcasting ability they want to use when casting their spells.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

thematically wisdom would not work as no one with common sense makes deals with things that mostly should never be interacted with at all, let alone making it your boss.

con sorcerers make too much sense

Warlocks should get a bonus for low wisdom and a penalty for high wisdom.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Level 8 Dragon Sorcerer would have 82 hp. That's more hp than a typical fighter at that level.
Level 8 Wizard would have around 50 or 58.

Looks fairly unbalanced.

With natural armour and the additional Con investment from it being your primary i think the extra HP could probably get dropped from dragon sorcerer and retain its concept as the ‘sturdier’ bloodline.

Edit: Personally I never really understood why sorcerer was designed with less weapon/armour proficiencies than the wizard given wizards seem like they’d need to invest more time into studying that the sorcerer could put elsewhere.

I don't. You can't cast or concentrate while raging.

I think the idea is that the multiclass would give you alternatives to just raging, and things to do between them, you switch between ‘magic mode’ or ‘mauling mode’

 

[Guest 7037866]

Frankly, with the same CON, fighters will have more HP. Even if the CON mod for the fighter is just 1 less, they have the edge of a bit more.

Wizards have an extremely more robust spell list and more spells prepared (than sorcerer's known)... how is that "balanced"? I mean, metamagic helps of course, but wizards also get the best version of ritual casting and with arcane recovery more spell slots.

There is a lot of unbalance in 5E.

As someone who's played with CON-based sorcerers for over the last three years, it doesn't feel unbalanced at all. No other caster-class PC player has complained one bit at all--and everyone thinks it makes much more sense thematically.

 

[mellored]

I don't think its balanced to have a caster who isn't MAD in relation to caster ability and concentration checks. I'd vote to leave everything alone.

Mostly agree.

Giving them primary saves and extra hit points is a fairly big boost. So you need to reduce something else as well.

Maybe they gain vulnerability to a damage type. Same vulnerability the dragon gets.
And warlocks get vulnerability to radiant.

Or something like that.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Use the variant abilities from the DMG!

Warlocks cast with Sanity
Paladins cast with Honor
Sorcerers cast with Constitution
Clerics cast with their Piety rank, no abilities.